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  • Can anyone guess why Dvorak put the 'L' where he did? Opinions wanted!

    Can anyone guess why Dvorak put the 'L' where he did? Opinions wanted!

    • Started by dante
    • 21 Replies:
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    • Registered: 06-Jul-2011
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    There seems to be 2 main issues with Dvorak:

    1. The "L" key
    2. Radically different from QWERTY

    And one that may not affect the majority:
    For programmers/unix users - especially those who use Unix (ls) it can be unfriendly and depending on who you are may force you to remap all your keys.

    I would like to have an intelligent non-biased discussion on item #1.  I would especially like opinions from layout designers or any one who messes around with it.

    It's true that when the layout was designed there were no computers to sift through mountains of text.  Still, at that time there should have been some sort of letter frequency map as it only seems like this one letter was ignored.  Surely there must be some reason for it?  At the very least while you do have to stretch the pinky, it's on the upper row.

    I find it difficult to believe that there is no rationale behind it.

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    • Registered: 26-Aug-2011
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    Well, I like to look at the frequency of difficult digraphs and same finger strokes in typing. L on the right pinky causes few difficult digraphs, the ones I run into most often include LS (and SL), though through technique tweaking this stroke doesn't need to be made with just the pinky (advanced Dvorak users, amirite?). For example, PI typed the proper Dvorak way would use just the index finger, but I use my middle finger and index to make it one stroke.. little tweaks.

    Other difficult digraphs with L are LV which is an awkward reach from top row pinky to bottom row ring finger and ZL which you won't see often outside of razzle or dazzle (heh, they're supposed to be hard strokes since they require a reach with the pinky but typing them quickly is so not difficult. Anyway, I can't think of other difficulties with the L. I've never found a problem using my pinkies for typing and it's a really fun change from Qwerty where a lot of my pinky strokes don't feel smooth.

    If you're worried when programming about having the LS combo, you can remap L to the opposite pinky (apostrophe/quotation marks to the right pinky). For the L that would create an LA and AL digraph difficulty.

    Another option would be switching L with '-' and '_' which rest on the home row to the right of S. It may create an oddity since you're just stretching the amount you have to move on the home row with the right hand.

    I don't know Dvorak's intentions with putting the L where he did, but I think it must have to do with hand alteration and trying to avoid many awkward strokes (Dvorak doesn't have too many more awkward strokes than Colemak). And who really knows? He could've simply run out of places to put letters given the layout he'd almost finished.

    *steno ftw*

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    • Registered: 10-Jul-2011
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    It is my belief that Dvorak didn't think the L-placement was very uncomfortable. I type Dvorak right now, and it's entirely-fine to me. It's a lot more tiring to hit F & X (Y, B on QWERTY) and the entire left-half of the bottom-row.

    I think a lot of typists do a little thing wrong. They keep their hands totally stationary and just stretch their pinky maximally to reach L. You're supposed to move and turn your whole hand, preferably wrist and arm all along with it. Ideally, there's as little effort involved in pressing down on L as on S.


    On a side-note, Dvorak's dissimilarity from QWERTY is exactly why I'm sticking with it for the time-being. I think that similarity with QWERTY would throw me off and make it hard for me to keep proficiency in both layouts at the same time.

    Last edited by cksn4 (21-Oct-2011 15:44:23)
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    The thing is that after you've been typing a while on a certain layout your typing technique has gotten changed a little bit. So for a user of one layout the decisions on another might seem strange and not optimal. The question for me is: is it going to be comfortable after you adapt to the layout?
    When I was using Dvorak I felt the L position inconvenient only in the very beginning. Again, when I changed to Colemak a lot of things seemed strange, for example the bottom row usage. In Dvorak I got used to use it very rarely so my whole palms were slightly moved upward, which is not ideal with Colemak :)

    Last edited by pafkata90 (21-Oct-2011 17:33:41)
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    At that time there were no Unix OS, so Dvorak never foresee that "ls -l" would be common words in 50 years later.

    confused-full.jpg

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    cksn4 said:

    It is my belief that Dvorak didn't think the L-placement was very uncomfortable. I type Dvorak right now, and it's entirely-fine to me. It's a lot more tiring to hit F & X (Y, B on QWERTY) and the entire left-half of the bottom-row.

    I think a lot of typists do a little thing wrong. They keep their hands totally stationary and just stretch their pinky maximally to reach L. You're supposed to move and turn your whole hand, preferably wrist and arm all along with it. Ideally, there's as little effort involved in pressing down on L as on S.

    I have the same feelings. After.. wow, it's been nearly 2 months since my post above. Well, needless to say I've become quite adept at Dvorak in that time. I'm a 100+ wpm typist again and am continuing my training and regular typing everyday. I've basically stopped using QWERTY altogether and I don't miss it. =P

    One of the reasons I chose Dvorak over Colemak was precisely its dissimilarity to QWERTY as cksn4 noted. The bottom row is quite infrequently used. I find the most used letters from the bottom row are w, m, and q. Also, the very common "qu" and "wh" digraphs with their first letters starting in the bottom row both have the same and mirror motion rolling up and inward which I find very neat and efficient since I think the bottom row ought to be just as efficient as the other rows even with its comparatively limited use.

    I'm thinking perhaps I should experiment with optimizing Dvorak further, similar to the optimized Colemak layouts (Q*MLW* layouts). For example, I notice a lot of words (will search for the percent) end in 'e' which makes ending many sentences less efficient as the period '.' is right above the E key, requiring a 1 finger movement. But the optimization would address the biggest inefficiencies. I wonder if others have tried to optimize Dvorak though. I am aware of the Dvorak (Weak Pinky) layout, but I'm looking for further optimization.

    Last edited by Playtrumpet (22-Oct-2011 05:32:17)
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    The whole 'ls' debate is a bit silly.  I think the change is just difficult, if you have typed 'ls' a g'zillion times in the shell.  It's one of those rare times when typing feels good under qwerty!

    Think though about the hyphen's placement, it is on the home row with Dvorak not a million miles away as with Colemak or Qwerty.  So surely that's got to make up for any disadvantage caused?  How about an alias of 'dir' instead!

    There is some good reason for the l's placement.  I really love typing should, could, and would.  A lot of words with the l involve a rocking motion on the right hand, right pinky, left hand, right index, left hand.  There certainly feels like some logic to it.  Take the word 'logic' for example.  There is a niceness about it.  Vowels are on the left hand with Dvorak.

    I don't think it's a Dvorak error placing the l where it is,  I think there is some design there, perhaps the master stroke?

    I blame any abuse done to the pinky down to the added responsibilities bestowed upon it.  Think backspace, enter and all the other punctuation.  These add up to an added pressure on the poor fellow.

    Why this strange non symmetry on the keyboard anyway?  Some punctuation has an upgrade under Dvorak to the top row on the left hand: '",.<>.  I'm not sure if the question mark get's a better placement with Dvorak - that's probably arguable.  I can't remember the original placement for these keys on typewriters - however there are no doubt less keys.

    As for Dvorak being radically different to Qwerty, it kind of is, and it kind of isn't.  If the e and the a was to jump sides it would be a little like a reflected Dvorak, but if my typing is anything to go by, then the left would end up doing more work than the right, which is a little odd for right handed people.

    Perhaps the punctuation with Qwerty doesn't feel so bad as the right hand precisely because the right hand gets cut a lot of slack.  Perhaps the right hand feels underused with Qwerty now we aren't using mechanical typewriters - you'd need some force to hit the carriage return, I doubt the pinky would have been nominated for that, as it would just roll over and die.

    The 'l' key feels odd to a Qwerty user (and I'm just guessing here), because they simply aren't used to using the pinky!  I'd never used it to type at all, I don't think before I learnt how to touch type.  Some people's pinky's are just plain pathetic,  I've seen some really small and short pinkies.  Having said that I've seen people type pretty quickly even with their lame extremities.

    I personally wonder if the pinky pressure causes some upper body discomfort, in a strange an subtle way.  If that is true then placing any keys on the pinky is bad design.

    Last edited by pinkyache (22-Oct-2011 14:49:49)

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    Playtrumpet said:

    I'm thinking perhaps I should experiment with optimizing Dvorak further, similar to the optimized Colemak layouts (Q*MLW* layouts). For example, I notice a lot of words (will search for the percent) end in 'e' which makes ending many sentences less efficient as the period '.' is right above the E key, requiring a 1 finger movement. But the optimization would address the biggest inefficiencies. I wonder if others have tried to optimize Dvorak though. I am aware of the Dvorak (Weak Pinky) layout, but I'm looking for further optimization.

    Capewell has done some optimisation work on Dvorak, you might take pages from his book. www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/layout_capewell-dvorak.htm

    Interesting, that about the full stop above the E. I'd like to hear about these percentages as well if you figure them out.

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    Dvorak put L there because every other placement would have worsened his layout.

    > For programmers/unix users - especially those who use Unix (ls) it can be unfriendly and depending on who you are may force you to remap all your keys.

    If you are a programmer/unix user worth his salt, you will remap ls to something else. Local fixes are much easier than globals ones.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    We should not care for what Dvorak think, it's the past and Dvorak keyboard layout is the past too.

    What do you/we feel about Colemak is more important. Now.

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    I too am slightly baffled and amused at the Dvorak discussions at the Colemak forums. But you know Tony, we should be civil and polite about it. That's one of the things I love about Shai and most of the Colemak community in general: It's so polite and informative that I keep forgetting we're a bunch of loony-bin-material keyboard geeks. ;) Not many other keyboard-related communities allow you to forget that fact! :D

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    I'm sure there is a little Dvorak DNA in Colemak.  The layouts aren't radically different, and they both share an aspiration to be easier for the typist.

    I appreciate the opportunity of a little civil discussion even if it does seem odd to some discussing Dvorak on a Colemak forum.  If Dvorak doesn't float your boat (or your fingers), I'm sure it's not that hard to tune out of certain threads.  Dismissing Dvorak seems a little silly to me.

    Last edited by pinkyache (18-Dec-2011 02:18:01)

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    Tony_VN said:

    We should not care for what Dvorak think, it's the past and Dvorak keyboard layout is the past too.

    What do you/we feel about Colemak is more important. Now.

    Dvorak was the first to make a serious effort in designing an optimal keyboard layout, and he did more research than almost anyone else. When he makes something that looks like an obvious mistake, it is worth investigating why he made that mistake, as it may reveal something important about keyboard layout design.

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    I would think that in the best interest of Colemak (as a happy user myself), that some discussion/comparisons/info of various layouts is very relevant. Especially since there can't be a cut-and-dry right or wrong. The door is even more open for these discussions here due to the 'expanded Colemak' threads that I've seen, but not had the time to look at. Then, there is the 'optimized Colemak' on the Caplax website....info/education is power. Then, and only then can you make informed decisions.

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    That's what I was trying to say too, only with less insight and more smileys. ;)

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    DreymaR said:

    I too am slightly baffled and amused at the Dvorak discussions at the Colemak forums.

    Indeed this forum was born as a forum aimed at discussing Colemak, but since forums dedicated to discussing keyboard layouts are lacking, has grown to cater to a wider audience. I think that, albeit a bit annoying, this is a good thing because sometimes ideas by typists from different backgrounds can be adopted by Colemak users, and other designers challenging Colemak let current Colemak users rest assured about its sound design.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    I think you hit it spot on, spremino.

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    Happy 2012.  Great forum!

    Interesting debate on the placement of L...

    I think that the placement of L for Dvorak is sensible given that:
    - its frequent enough to be on the top row (http://mtgap.bilfo.com/theory-of-letter-frequency.html)
    - rolls well with other right hand digrams such as CL, RL, NL, GL, TL. (http://jnicholl.org/Cryptanalysis/Data/ … encies.php).  these diagrams are all an outward roll on the dvorak, which is ok due to low frequency.

    Some additional comments:
    - alias l='ls -lrt' ... combine that with a CTRL-M on a proper unix keyboard - use some CTRL-H when you make a typo. (http://www.shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh- … X_Kbd.html)
    - Dvorak is very heavy on the right hand.   BUT this is only when you don't use proper posture - otherwise it has very good rythm:
       - straight back
       - keyboard below elbows
       - natural position only and no bending for your wrists
       - right angle on the elbow joint and movement of arm and wrist as one...   
       - floating fingers
       - minimal stretching of fingers - move your floating hand to reach keys.

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    kostasv said:

    - Dvorak is very heavy on the right hand.   BUT this is only when you don't use proper posture - otherwise it has very good rythm:
       - straight back
       - keyboard below elbows
       - natural position only and no bending for your wrists
       - right angle on the elbow joint and movement of arm and wrist as one...   
       - floating fingers
       - minimal stretching of fingers - move your floating hand to reach keys.

       - press spacebar with your left thumb.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    I don't see how generic work posture advise pertains to hand balance? Doesn't that just mean that if you're careful enough the problems won't cause you harm?

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    DreymaR said:

    I don't see how generic work posture advise pertains to hand balance? Doesn't that just mean that if you're careful enough the problems won't cause you harm?

    It's exactly as you said it.  If you are careful then problems are less likely to come up.  And of course the experience varies with people.

    In my experience from Dvorak, the top of the right forearm might start to burn after long usage in the first months. This is because the right hand is more busy and stretches.  Floating the hand helps with this, and to float the hands for long time the right angles at the joints and the straight back of the generic posture help.

    The generic posture also has to do with overall stress on the body (muscles, bones and nerves), blood circulation, and breathing.

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    My most comfortable typing position is with my elbows resting on my chair's arm rests. With my wrists raised into a straight position.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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