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Dvorak vs. Colemak question

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pafkata90 said:

Some people even say it's more difficult to learn the layout if the key caps were on the right places because you are tempted to look every now and then. I don't know how true that is but most of us here have learnt Colemak on non-Colemak keyboards.

I don't think it's true at all.  When learning Dvorak, I started for a few days blind with a picture of the layout on the corner of the screen.  A couple days later I put "training" stickers on all of the changed keys, to prevent hitting the wrong key just after I get my hands set up for typing and when aiming for keyboard shortcuts.  The stickers were mostly unneeded after about 1½ to 2 weeks or so, and by about a month I reached half or more of my old average QWERTY speed.  The stickers, I think, did help--mostly within the first week or two.  After that, they quickly became useless.  The only ones that remain are those few I haven't worn out yet, mostly on the bottom row but a few letters at the top.  And the top keys look like they'll be wearing off soon enough.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (07-Jan-2013 16:18:53)
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Tony_VN said:
knightjp said:

Considering that I'm going cold turkey on Colemak, would it be hardes to get used to the layout using a keyboard with keycaps on the QWERTY layout? I thinking it would.

You will need the nubs on top of F and J keys to get your fingers into the right positions. Since you will not look at the keyboard anyway, the nub is all matters to you.

So it would be better to use a normal QWERTY keyboard to learn the Colemak layout?. :P

Last edited by knightjp (07-Jan-2013 22:07:32)
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Ironically yes :P If you insist on having the proper key caps, you can consider buying stickers from somewhere. The other option is completely new Colemak keyboard, though I'm not sure about the availability of such a thing, I haven't searched for one; or becoming crafty and making custom bumps on the N and T and using them as a reference.

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See the "Make Your Own Physical Colemak Board thread" for a number of bump solutions. Most of the time I either keep the key caps in QWERTY, or replace the N key with a bumped one (the T bump isn't necessary for me).

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Getting a little busy and fragmented this thread...

I got used to the mouse on the left quickly, and was/is quite easy for basic point and clicking.

Regarding the cut and paste, shortcuts, I'll mention the ins and del substitutes again - look them up.  You might find you prefer them anyway, you can use them one handed and you might even find them easier.

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Wow. Dvorak use the right hand heavily, so moving the mouse to the left hand is a brilliant idea. Thanks pinkyache for sharing this idea with us.

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Any form of progress should involve a compromise. If you plan to use Dvorak, it makes more complete sense to use the mouse on the left. I have my own terminal at work, so setting it to my specs is easy. But since there are those rare occasions where my workspace is being used while I'm out of the office. I think that left hand mousing would be an issue for some people.
Who knows, I might give that dvorak idea a try. Left handed mousing should be nice considering that I'm left handed.

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Oh really!  Moving the mouse from the left to the right hand side of the keyboard isn't that difficult surely, for users jumping on your machine.  They'll have more fun/trouble switching the keyboard layout.

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pinkyache said:

Oh really!  Moving the mouse from the left to the right hand side of the keyboard isn't that difficult surely, for users jumping on your machine.  They'll have more fun/trouble switching the keyboard layout.

I'm just trying the left hand mouse at work with a dvorak layout. I'm not too keen on the shortcuts; even on the right hand.
Did you have to do extensive mapping for the shortcuts?

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You are using Ctrl/Shift+Ins, right?

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pafkata90 said:

You are using Ctrl/Shift+Ins, right?

more like shift + ins..
Not sure whether I like that though.

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Yeah, that depends on your keyboard.

btw Ctrl+Ins is "copy", and it's usually just as easy to reach as Shft+Ins. That's why I said it..

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pafkata90 said:

Yeah, that depends on your keyboard.

btw Ctrl+Ins is "copy", and it's usually just as easy to reach as Shft+Ins. That's why I said it..

That reminds me. What if your keyboard does not have the Ins / Del cluster like a laptop keyboard?

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@knightjp, you use CTRL+C, and CTRL+V!  You want it all!

It might feel odd at first, but that's because you aren't familiar with the method.

When I started to use the mouse on the left hand side, I started to find the ZXCV shortcuts awkward.  I didn't miss them switching to Dvorak like others may.  I did get my CTRL+V, and CTRL+W mixed up, which was a royal pain to begin with (closing windows on paste!), but after getting the layout down - it hasn't been an issue.

If you have a normal sized keyboard, you can also use the number pad for arrow keys and cut, copy, paste.

If you are a die hard Photoshop guru, then you're probably not going to want to swap your mouse hand or loose the placement of the existing shortcuts.

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pinkyache said:

@knightjp, you use CTRL+C, and CTRL+V!  You want it all!

It might feel odd at first, but that's because you aren't familiar with the method.

When I started to use the mouse on the left hand side, I started to find the ZXCV shortcuts awkward.  I didn't miss them switching to Dvorak like others may.  I did get my CTRL+V, and CTRL+W mixed up, which was a royal pain to begin with (closing windows on paste!), but after getting the layout down - it hasn't been an issue.

If you have a normal sized keyboard, you can also use the number pad for arrow keys and cut, copy, paste.

If you are a die hard Photoshop guru, then you're probably not going to want to swap your mouse hand or loose the placement of the existing shortcuts.

The left handed mousing was in a word, nice. Maybe that's 'cuz I'm a lefty. Brought the keys right in front, made typing a nice feel. But I needed to get back my dvorak typing; been out of touch since I started using Colemak. I agree that I needed to get used to Ins as a shortcut.  I'm no photoshop guy, but I'd imagine there are Photoshop guys that use dvorak too.
My main query was how could we use shortcuts like Shift+Ins on a laptop keyboard.

I'm gonna give this a go. Left hand and dvorak, here I come. lol.

Last edited by knightjp (09-Jan-2013 07:16:59)
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Currently using left hand mouse & dvorak at the moment. OK, Dvorak needs a bit of getting used to since I was using Colemak all this time. I got the hang of the left hand mouse easily. The keyboard shortcuts worked well; I just need to get used to them.
One thing though I am going to miss; having most of the shortcuts on one hand. For that, Colemak was brilliant.

Last edited by knightjp (09-Jan-2013 12:35:16)
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Answering @knightjp:

Stress, keyboards and layouts:
Regarding switching to Colemak to cure my ills, I'd think it would be more trouble than it's worth personally for me.  Relearning I think would actually stress me, now that I'm familiar with Dvorak.  If Colemak was proved to be a far superior layout and was as accessible as Dvorak I may have considered it.  It's hard to say if Dvorak has any bearing on my shoulder and if Colemak would be better, perhaps lightening the load on the right hand would help - who knows.   I don't really want to bore people on the forum with my woes, as I've moaned enough.  But I had problems that drove me to trying out an alternative layout.  I had a period of time where I couldn't use the computer at all.  I don't think touch typing and Dvorak are a miracle cure, but they've helped somewhat.  The initial stress was very hard to get through.  RSI and computer related stress is I believe a very real and complex issue.  When I was young, I could lounge about on the computer in any old fashion, for hours, at all hours and it barely made a dent.  It insidiously catches up with you.  So be warned.  I'd have thought that getting into good habits when young would be a great way to avoid future stresses.

Right handed shortcuts:
I don't really get @pafkata's comments about shortcuts.  I haven't remapped any shortcuts.  But  I use shortcuts heavily.  What I was suggesting is that there is a layout agnostic alternative to the XCV + CTRL key combos (these though are not the only shortcuts that I use) with ins and del.  Those shortcuts are just a subset of all that you use so I don't really get what all the fuss is about.  I guess it's just that those shortcuts are ingrained in motor memory.  Under Dvorak I could use right CTRL with ZXCVTNSL etc, to get shortcuts onto one hand.  I don't use the right control currently, it seems to vary in placement and is a little awkward for me.  But I can use it with my thumb quite comfortably - which could work with the del and ins method.  I dare say though that you might be able to get used to it.

There's another issue of placing chords onto one hand, some people don't mind this, and it depends how you do it. But I find I bend my wrist to do so.  Which I don't think is that nice.  I've learnt to shift with alternate hands, which I like.  Perhaps I should do the same with CTRL.  However under Dvorak not many shortcuts require me to do so.    The exception being CTRL + Q (Q is on Qwerty's X spot.)  I don't like that shortcut, I find it awkward.  Which is odd because everyone seems to rave about CTRL + X (Qwerty/Colemak)!  Actually CTRL + X (Qwerty's B) is a bit of a reach on Dvorak.

Relieving the right hand under Dvorak:
You could employ caps lock as backspace.  And try mousing with the left hand.  Or move the punctuation off of the pinky perhaps with a wide mod, or using something like programmer's Dvorak.

Sticky keys:
I find I'm a little hard on the shift and ctrl key combos, and that using sticky keys frees up my hands a lot.  It takes out twists and turns of the wrists.   But it's another thing to get used to and operating system support varies.  The other thing to consider is putting CTRL onto the capslock (or switching it with alt, to get it under the thumb).  I used to like chords, but like them less and less.

I actually quite like employing my right pinky when typing.  I quite like rocking my hand.  I'm not the biggest fan of same finger key presses, but I can't say they come up that often. Having the switch/hyphen on my pinky is far better than having it on the top row any day of the week, and negates the slight inconvenience of ls -al.

Last edited by pinkyache (11-Jan-2013 12:35:37)

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@Honfclibur, back to your original question.

(Disclaimer: I've only flirted with Colemak.)

Dvorak favours the right hand.  The left hand gets far less work to do, and gets all the vowels (which ensures hand alternation when typing).  Qwerty conversely is extremely lightweight on the right hand.  My right hand and pinky suddenly were called into service when I started out with Dvorak and I noticed it.  I am right handed so it doesn't bother me that my right hand has to do a little more work.  Typing on the left hand side of a standard keyboard can be more awkward because of the stagger not being inline with the arm.  It's something to consider.  It may however not be an issue on a matrix and on some other ergonomic keyboards.

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 20:43:09)

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The left hand mousing was great but I think Shift+Ins and Ctrl+Ins wouldn't work for me. It works great in Windows, but not in the adobe applications I use.
In addition, I use a mac at home and my keyboard does not have an Ins button. I need to be able to use the shortcuts at work too for the adobe programs to make the work go quicker. So in that sense, Colemak would work better for me; regardless of the OS or the kind of keyboard, as a layout, I feel it highly optimised for it. But I do need to say that I still feel Dvorak to be a more comfortable layout and easier layout to learn for me. I'm still trying to come to grips with placing of the Colemak letters; even after all this usage.

To answer the real question for this thread, which would be more beneficial to learn?... Yeah, that still remains a mystery. Anyone is better than QWERTY. Choosing in between the two I guess boils down to personal choice. I didn't expect to like Colemak, but found myself a fan of its ability to have easy shortcuts and relative comfortable feel.
With Dvorak, my fingers still needed to be trained to get back my old speed, but I learned the placing of the letters far more easily, even if I had to take quick glances. I struggle at times to type words that would be of no issue in Dvorak like, "regards" and endings of words like -ion...
Not saying that it cannot be done, just saying that I myself find that hard. Perhaps needs a whole lot more practise.

Last edited by knightjp (15-Jan-2013 22:36:52)
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I love -ion. I wonder what people have against it. Yeah, maybe you do need a little more practice. I can understand that 'regards' is tricky though.

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ion (Colemak) = nsh (Dvorak) = nsh, yeah that's a weird one.

I practice a right hand Colemak exercise translated to Dvorak, and it's funny how different it feels.  Patterns in one layout might not appear at all in another.

I find it hard identifying troublesome typing patterns in Dvorak (perhaps it's just because I'm seasoned now).  I can't help but think there maybe a grand design there after all.

One odd Dvorak word to type is 'people', it's left hand heavy with outward rolls.  It kind of wakes my hand from it's slumber when it occurs.  There's an oddity I like about it because it feels so alien and different.

Perhaps I should try Qwerty to mix it up a little...  stewardessess, stewardesses, stewardessess, typewriter...

Last edited by pinkyache (17-Nov-2013 15:29:07)

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Star Wars on Qwerty, anyone? hehe

Yeah, examples could be plenty. It's fun to kind of test drive other layouts by "translating" some text like you did. Kinda gives you an idea of how you would feel, even though it might be a little false. I mean you get used to some stuff which initially look strange – like the Colemak ION, coming from Dvorak.

Last edited by pafkata90 (16-Jan-2013 05:49:07)
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DreymaR said:

I love -ion. I wonder what people have against it. Yeah, maybe you do need a little more practice. I can understand that 'regards' is tricky though.

Yeah, I guess that all I need is probably more practice. Still struggle though with the placement of some letters. Like, L, G & O for instance... I get that its probably in a better place than where it is on Dvorak, but its still not ideal IMO. Needs a lot of getting used to.

Last edited by knightjp (16-Jan-2013 06:44:34)
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What I remember from my Dvorak -> Colemak transition is fretting about some letters or combos that seemed less comfortable, just to realize that those combos were in fact too comfortable on Dvorak! Not all bigrams are created equal. ;)

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I suppose we're never gonna win and find THE truly best layout in the world. But from the site - forums / blogs, all suggest that Colemak does come pretty damn close. Its claims have proven time and again in everything that I've thrown at it. For now, it remains as my layout of choice for its features, but not for its comfort or speed. That remains subjective to me; meaning, it depends on the user and his/her requirements.

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