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    Dear Shai: G is more frequent than P

    • Started by jag50
    • 8 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 29-Jul-2007
    • Posts: 51

    I have noticed that the G key is far harder to reach then the P key.

    What do you Shai, think about swapping the G key for the P key on your keyboard layout?

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    • Shai
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    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 423

    G and P more or less have the same frequency, so it doesn't matter either way. Nevertheless, I've contemplated on the issue for a long time before I made my decision.

    There are a few reasons that I've decided to keep them that way:
    *  In literature G tends to be more frequent than P, but in other types of text, it's not always the case. According this, in the Brown Corpus and the British National Corpus, P is actually more frequent than G. I think the source of the article is: Eckler, A. Ross, Word Ways, "A Survey of Letter-Frequencies" , p. 75-81, but I wasn't able to verify that. If someone has access to the Brown Corpus or the British National Corpus (which are huge and contain many different types of text, and not just literature), it would be nice to independently verify that.
    * Even though the distance to hit the G key is greater, hitting the P key is a bit awkward, because it involves curving back the index finger.
    * G hasn't been moved horizontally (like B and H that have been kept in place) to mark on each row the edge between the left hand and the right hand to help in learning the keyboard layout. It slightly helps to mentally separate the right hand keys and the left hand keys for those people coming from QWERTY.
    * As a bonus, P keeps the same position as on the Dvorak keyboard layout. Only the A, M, P and the number keys are the same on Dvorak and Colemak.
    * G is most of the time preceded and followed with a character from the right hand, so even though it takes slightly longer to reach the G key, there is usually more time to prepare for it.
    * But the main consideration was that the PT/TP same-finger digraph is much more comfortable the way it is on Colemak, than if P and G were to be switched. The GT/TG digraph is much less frequent.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    Shai, I love your explanations! No, really.

    Would you care to expound on the U, please? It moves only one to the right, and while I understand why the I and L had to be moved there's probably something more subtle to the U key. Digraphs, finger loads or something. If you have the time to tell me/us?

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Feb-2008 14:15:35)

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    • Shai
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    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
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    U is a bit more simple. The index finger needs to hit 6 keys, and putting the U there with 5 other keys would increase the same-finger way too much.  If you'll mix the U with 5 other consonants it will make the same-finger really high; and you can't put other vowels there because all the other vowels need to be in the home position.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Ah, thanks. I think you've explained that one before, but I had forgotten.

    I can totally understand if you don't find the time or surplus energy to write up your Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Colemak article. But it certainly would be sweet. Maybe a good start would be to edit together a bunch of these posts?

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
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    I second that.  I love these posts and simply collecting them to serve as the base of a future comprehensive article on Colemak is a great idea!

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    That, and once you have a little collection of explanations it'll comprise a FAQ that we could point to whenever these questions are re-asked. I never remember where it was Shai answered so-and-so recurring letter placement question, and some of them pop up every so often.

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    • Registered: 08-Mar-2008
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    There should be a section of FAQ* dedicated to why the Colemak is what it is, in detail. I'd also be interested to know how Shai knows so much about keyboards. I've been researching keyboarding for 4 months, but Shai seems to know so much more than me.

    As to a couple other things I've noticed:

    -B is in a very awkward position, and although it's not very common, Q or Z would do better there. I do know that leaving it would help people learn Colemak, but since that isn't a problem for me, I'd probably switch it with X. Actually, I might do that.

    -L is under the index, but I think top row ring finger is actually easier to type. Of course, switching Y with L would cause same finger issues.


    *FAQ is hard to type on Colemak, though I was using the left shift for the whole word, which didn't help

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    - L: I think you said it: Same finger issues are bad. And I don't think everyone will agree that the ring finger is easier, although I think I see what you mean.

    - B: Moving the rare letters Q and Z is a no-go, in part because of the shortcut thing. Now, someone will always pipe in that "I don't care about the shortcuts!" but that's fairly irrelevant as long as a lot of other users do - and it's a fairly important design principle for this layout all in all.

    The best solution for this imnsho, is the BRHS - the Bottom Row Half Shift - utilizing the VK_102 as the new Z and putting the old VK_102 char (whatever that is) on the old B position and good riddance to it there since that'll invariably be a rarely used symbol (mine is the <> key which is common enough for a symbol but rare enough for a key). For the hardware-challenged US people - poor bastards! - that have the fat Shift key instead of the last bottom-row key (aka a 101-key or 104-key board) it isn't so easy. If you're intent on getting your B a better life, the main suggestion is to change ZXCVB to XCVBZ. The whole point of this exercise is to keep the fingering and get a more ergonomic wrist angle, but it will also make for a much easier B stretch in my experience. Nowadays I can't believe I did without it.  :)

    Now, in one paragraph I say that the Z won't be moved, and in the next I suggest how to move it. That's just the difference between official Colemak policy and what's smart/fun/useful to do on your own if you have the gall and guts for it. The BRHS is useful and cool, but I guess it may become a minor hurdle to new learners and we want as few as possible of those. And Shai doesn't want to maintain/explain multiple versions of the layout. Furthermore, in my experience it's quite all right to do the BRHS a while after learning the main Colemak setup, since the fingering of those keys remains (largely) the same - it can be implemented as a standalone module as it were. I've even considering trying to get a few QWERTY users to try it, for the heck of it.

    Mind you, Shai does recommend the BRHS for boards that have a VK_102 key!

    Last edited by DreymaR (23-Apr-2008 09:16:00)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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