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    So... what happened to the Minimak post?

    • Started by DreymaR
    • 6 Replies:
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,363
    DreymaR (in the 'Learning it one hand at a time?' topic) said:

    [New user Lilleyt (Ted Lilley) just posted a post about his new layout into several topics including this one:]

    Lilleyt: It seems to me that you've posted the same largish post over and over into at least 7 other topics that only partially relate to it! Why not make your own topic to discuss the layout you've made? It is an interesting layout proposal and I have some (hopefully constructive) feedback on it, but since I disagree with your tactics I'm not going to give that feedback in any of these topics. That would largely derail the topics, fragment the discussion of your new layout and generally cause mayhem I feel. If you make a separate topic for your layout I'll discuss it there.

    One thing the Minimak layout does have to do with this topic is that it does indeed let you learn it one hand at a time! Its site claims that no other layout has that benefit; whether the above means that Colemak has it too or not is largely a technicality I feel. You can learn Minimak one hand at a time without displacing any keys which is nice.

    Seems the spam filter chewed up all those identical posts yesterday (even their author is gone now)! Good thing too, as they kinda carpet-bombed a lot of topics. However, the layout itself seemed worth a discussion at least. Lacking a reposting from the Minimak layout author maybe we should discuss it a bit without him? :)

       header-object.png
       The Minimak layout, as seen on http://minimak.org/ [disclaimer: This isn't the final version of it as described on that site anymore!]

    It's kinda ingenious to bring the necessary keys to the QWERTY home row like that; it's hard to envision a simpler solution. Makes for very easy learning - and if desirable, modular learning. The question is of course whether it's good enough.

    I'd most certainly swap the N and J keys instead of putting the U down there in a too bad position and the J up there in a too good position! The impact on Vim should be minimal after all, and you'd move one less key. Also, the U-N digraph on the current Minimak layout needs special fingering and on most keyboards you could slide it instead if the U is one the upper row.

    One argument I saw briefly yesterday [cevgar's] is that merely moving your hands to a home position that covers the upper row (i.e., resting your long digits between the rows) achieves most of what Minimak does without changing QWERTY at all! Maybe that's correct. I know that I rest my fingers on the upper edge of the RS and EI keys on Colemak, which makes the WF and UY keys easy to hit.

    The main issue for me with this approach is that it seems to solve some letter frequency problems but does nothing significant about polygraphs! Same-finger digraphs on QWERTY should be same-finger digraphs on Minimak; and as said before I loathe same-finger digraphs! So I guess it'll only be a solution for someone who wants just a little change but maybe it's still too much ado for too little benefit? I know it is for me at least! ;)

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-Jan-2013 19:37:01)

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    I think the effort to learn a new layout is the same regardless of the layout, and it's quite a tough experience physically and emotionally. So ideally you should learn it only once in your lifetime, with the most efficient layout you can find. But there's no best layout, so you end up switching to Colemak/Dvorak/Arensito/Carpalx layouts, and stay with that.

    Minimax is not very efficient compared to Colemak/Dvorak/Arensito/Carpalx, so in my opinion you would end up with a mediocre solution.

    For example, you must move your index finger horizontally to type T, which is frequently used. On the other hand, J is in a too good position despite its unpopularity.

    Putting E and T, two most used keys in English, on the same left hand has made Qwerty very imbalanced with 16% leaning to the left, and Minimax does nothing to change that. Most of us are right handed so that must be very awkward to many of us.

    All you get is a smoother switching experience according to the Minimax author but it's still a tough one anyway.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (16-Aug-2012 14:02:52)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    The effort to learn different layouts is certainly not the same! Like user wibble once said, the commotion you cause to your "keyboard gestalt feeling" by changing anything might be the same pretty much regardless of what you change. But like it was pointed out back then, how much you change and how drastically greatly impacts how fast you recover!

    When I learnt the bottom-left-row ZXCVB shift it only took me a couple of days before full typing comfort was regained because it only changed the position of 6 keys and only one rarely used one changed fingering. Based on that experience, I guess you could learn Minimak in a matter of days too. For all the good it will do you...

    Good point about Minimax not improving balance (hand, finger, what-have-you) either.

    BTW: It's funny that Arensito still has such a good position in people's sentiments. That layout was developed for typing on a Kinesis in Norwegian and puts æ and å on important keys! Also, it changes everything around and looks like a mess. How many users has it got these days, I wonder?

    (To answer my own question in a way: If Google hits are an indicator of anything, there's ~1,000 for 'Arensito layout', ~2,500 for 'CarpalX layout', ~79,000 for 'Colemak layout' and ~1,480,000 for 'Dvorak layout'. Heh. I had to add the 'layout' term to the searches to distinguish the Dvorak hits from the composer. Adding 'keyboard layout' led to different results again.)

    Last edited by DreymaR (16-Aug-2012 14:18:21)

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    True, DreymaR, you are correct to point out that Minimax switching experience would be less tough compared to a Colemak/Dvorak one.

    Hmm I think it's still tough and the benefits that Minimax can provide are not sufficient enough.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (16-Aug-2012 14:13:08)
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    Basically I'm rehashing what has been said already, but here goes.

    While I like the concept of minimal switching, switching is still switching, and frankly the changes aren't enough to make it worthwhile. As DreymaR noted, I've stated before that fingering can fix a lot of the distance issues in Qwerty without bothering with layouts. The E position isn't actually a horrible place to rest your L.Mid, so it is effectively home row already. Likewise, on the left hand IO and even P (for left shifters) aren't horrible home positions either. On this 'Minimak', the same finger ratio is unchanged from Qwerty; the T is unforgivably still not a home position; the new U placement, while it isn't bad (decades of hitting the Qwerty N is perhaps coloring my opinion), is still particularly unkind when typing YOU; there are no non-Windows solutions and the layout doesn't even bother to incorporate the relatively simple and painless Wide-mod.


    On a side note, I'm not sure the Qwerty L.Hand bias is as much of a problem as we make it out to be, even for right handers. Granted I've never particularly noticed as I've been more-or-less touch typing since I was... like eight? Anyways, considering the amount of R.Hand mousing most of us do, I expect it balances out somewhat. I've heard complaints by Dvorakers that they had to switch to left hand mousing for similar reasons.



    AND once again, a quick round of what I like to call "Defending arensito from DreymaR". I strongly suspect arensito's popularity is due to it being one of the few layouts to advocate alternate home positions (awkward beginnings aside, it does actually fix the L.Hand angle), use of the thumbs and significant use of a more accessible AltGr layer. It is basically like a demonstration of what efficient use of an ANSI keyboard should look like, and I suspect that the majority of its hit count is earned from academics referencing it in their dissertations. Personally the only gripes I have about it are the placement of the numbers in the AltGr layer, and the lack of ports to non-Linux operating systems.

    If we are going to discuss layouts that are still oddly popular, how about Capewell? That one never made a lot of sense to me, though I do appreciate the placement of the semi-colon.

    Last edited by cevgar (16-Aug-2012 16:07:08)
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    :) !

    Thanks for the input, mate.

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    • From: Tampa, FL, USA
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    I'm the author of the original Minimak post.

    Sorry for getting booted by the spam filter.  Was just excited to share my work and the board only lets you know that it's taking action *after* it lets you make the posts.  If I'd been told while making them, I wouldn't have put my announcement on more than one post.

    I also had difficulty registering (the visual captcha didn't work on my browser), so I decided to leave well enough alone.

    I just wanted to note that I've reworked the layout several times over, and the final result is posted to my website (http://www.minimak.org/).  After reading a lot of what is posted in these forums, I don't think you'll necessarily be all that impressed, as the target user is a different audience than you'll find here.  But I'll be interested in any feedback in any case.  The intended audience are people who aren't willing to go to the effort of learning a new full layout such as Colemak or Dvorak.  Minimak fosuses exclusively on improvements that can be made to QWERTY while sacrificing a minimum to the learning curve.  In every incarnation of the layout, only 3 keys switch fingers.  For metrics I look at finger distance and same-finger repetition.  Trying to squeeze other optimizations in with so few key changes is an exercise in futility, although I did spend a lot of time with considerations like digraphs and same-hand row jumps.  The final layout exhibits better behavior than QWERTY on those fronts as well, but only as a side-effect of the main design philosophy.  So no attempt to quantify them is made in the results.

    Also, the graphic that was linked to by your posts here is gone or modified, so sorry if any of your prior posts which make reference to it seem curiously off.

    Minimak - Better typing without losing QWERTY
    http://www.minimak.org/

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