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    No RSI for typewriter users?

    • Started by pinkyache
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    Last week I foolishly picked up a spade and went to work on the garden.  My wrists weren't best pleased afterwards and I've had lingering aches since (I'm sure they'll dissipate.)

    Yesterday evening someone noticed me clasping my wrist and asked as to the problem.  He then went on to say that no typists using classic old school typewriters got RSI, and that I perhaps should go at the keyboard with a little more gusto - all hammer and tongs.

    Is there any truth in this?

    Why would modern keyboards lead to injury where type writers didn't?  What about electric typewriters?   Could it be something to do with the bottoming out (no cushioning?)  Maybe the hammers are suitably springy.  Could the micro movement of touch typing aggravate more?  Or is it related to the wider width of the modern keyboard, or the fact it isn't stepped?

    Could all be bunkum, but he said it with such reassurance!  I can't imagine not feeling fatigue and stress from using a manual.

    Last edited by pinkyache (30-Aug-2012 18:03:06)

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    Probably bunk. Fewer people typed a lot and those who did were mostly trained professionals who had learnt ergonomic practices (although those weren't quite up to scratch after today's measures). They had good sitting positions, took breaks, stretched and did circulation exercises etc.

    Remember that Dvorak produced his ergonomic layout at a time well before computer typing! This alone suggests that yes, there were indeed problems with the typewriters back then too - and if you had those problems your job as a secretary might be jeopardized. Yes, Dvorak also made claims about higher typing speed and that would be very tempting as the salary of a faster typist was often higher in those days. But I think the ergonomy was always a major point.

    I do feel that some modern membrane boards, if used carelessly, could well be worse on your fingers and wrists than the typewriters of yore. But it's just a feeling of mine.

    One thing that is true is that to cure wrist problems you should do exercises starting with the large movements from the shoulders down, low-to-medium load and plenty of repetitions. Circulation and strength are both major assets in the fight against RSI.

    Last edited by DreymaR (30-Aug-2012 13:20:12)

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    It seems that once again, DreymaR said it first. I'm not so sure I buy the concept of typists being more professional about their profession.  To summarize my own opinion, the phrase "disregarding other relevant factors" comes to mind. Circumstances were different, and it is possible than many instances were simply not reported. Heck even telegraphists got RSI (telegraphists wrist), not that you ever hear anyone mention it.

    Still if you want to try the typewriter route, IBM Model M's are supposed to be similar to the Selectric typewriters and can be had for pretty cheap. My personal favorite though, The USB Typewriter Keyboard Conversion Kit. I have a old 'power assist' typewriter that I miss dearly. Not the keyboard itself, but that constant heavy, tug boat-esque, Chug-Chug-Chug-Chug. The solid TWACK when letters were put to the page. The ding warning at the end of the line. Somehow, none of the digital sound effects ever quite get it right.

    Last edited by cevgar (30-Aug-2012 18:39:38)
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    In this hypothesis the author suggests that it might be a result of using different tendons(?)

    http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystor … /172930/81

    Perhaps the office of old kept people a little more limber by keeping us on our toes more:

    http://oztypewriter.blogspot.co.uk/2012 … itive.html

    I did find another article - that suggested that the slower speeds on manuals may stave off injury.

    I like Dreymar's comment about Dvorak trying to address what might have been an existing endemic problem.

    Unison doesn't seem to think that typewriter users are immune.  And I've also seen mention of RSI brought about through cash register use.

    http://www.unison.org.uk/safetyvoluntary/rsi.asp

    Perhaps a topic worthy of further investigation.  I'm not so sure that a Model M is the answer to my ills!

    Last edited by pinkyache (30-Aug-2012 18:28:01)

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    In the old times RSI awareness was not raised, and the number of typists was not many.

    Now in this computer era, almost anyone use computers, and internet helps to increase RSI awareness, so many people with RSI are found and many RSI cases are studied.

    Unlike old typewriters, many computer keyboards are flat and compact, so we tend to use wrist tendon to move fingers instead of using the whole hands, so more chance for RSI.

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    Tony_VN said:

    Unlike old typewriters, many computer keyboards are flat and compact, so we tend to use wrist tendon to move fingers instead of using the whole hands, so more chance for RSI.

    Interesting to know which method is more susceptible to physical injury.

    Touch typing and Colemak are partly sold to punters as a possible antidote to RSI.  The micro movements of touch typing from what you suggest might prove to be more problematic than say the haphazard floundering of hunt and peckers.  Any credible studies on this?

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    This book may be helpful to you:

    Complete Guide to Repetitive Strain Injury, Emil Pascarelli, PhD
    https://vivaa.ca/download/doc_download/ … njury.html

    Some excerpts

    Computer keyboards

    No other piece of computer equipment has had more design research and gone through more style changes than the computer keyboard. Research has focused on key placement, size, adjustability, touch, key pressure, and technical design. Still, the keyboard that suits everyone has not yet appeared.

    What kind of keyboard should you buy? Choosing a keyboard can be confusing, as there are so many available at a wide range of prices. When you buy a new computer, it comes with a standard keyboard, and if it is not comfortable or is causing you pain, you will want to get one that suits your needs better. As mentioned in chapter 2, the elbow carrying angle, which varies from person to person, will affect the way you place your handsas you hit the keys. The greater your carrying angle, the greater the likelihood that you will need a split keyboard. In any case, I believe a split keyboard is generally a good choice for everyone.

    ergokbd1.jpg

    Virtually all keyboards now on the market have the cheaper-to-manufacture membrane cushioning for keys, rather than the more desirable individual spring loading for each key, which is best for good touch feedback. Basically, three types of keyboards are available: traditional, fixed split, and adjustable split.

    The traditional keyboard is supplied with most home computers and is usually what you will find at your workstation. Some are available with a number pad on the right side, while others are alphanumeric or have a separate number keyboard.

    The fixed split keyboard has a split at an angle of about twenty-four degrees and a slight downward taper on each end, which takes the hand slightly out of the palms-down position. The number pad, on the right side, is flat. The palm apron along the front edge of these keyboards is not ergonomically sound—don’t rely on it to support your palms. Small legs that prop up the far end of the keyboard should not be used, since they encourage extending your wrist, as when pushing a door open, a harmful posture. If you purchase this type of keyboard, make sure you have the right size of pullout tray.

    There are several varieties of adjustable keyboards. These keyboards can be placed in the traditional position, angled, and even tented so the hands are no longer in the palms-down position but are held somewhere between palms up and palms down.

    ergokbd2a.jpg

    According to Dr. Alan Hedge, an ergonomics researcher at Cornell University, keying with the palms in a vertical position, as in playing an accordion, allows the forearm tendons, which move the fingers, to work more easily. Since you cannot see the keys in this position, it is difficult or impossible for a nontouch typist to use one, so vertical mirrors are installed on each side.

    Many of the people who feel uncomfortable in the palms-down position at the keyboard have tight forearm pronator and supinator muscles, which need to be stretched. By placing the adjustable keyboard at a tented angle of approximately thirty degrees they might feel more comfortable during their retraining. See chapter 6 for details on exercises.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (31-Aug-2012 10:11:39)
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    Slightly off topic there Tony_VN!  Though I really should try and incoporate those exercises into my daily routine - especially now that winter is approaching...  The cold doesn't do my aches and pains any favours.

    As there aren't many radical ergonomic keyboard designs, I'm inclined to think that more research has gone into keyboard internals than actual usability.  My neck stiffens deliberating on it.

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    Those split keyboards that maintain the wrong row stagger on the left hand make me want to curl up and sob silently...

    Last edited by DreymaR (31-Aug-2012 13:51:54)

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    One of the things which seldom gets mentioned is that with a typewriter, be it manual or electric (but possibly not electronic ie with a memory of some sort) is the necessity to stop typing to remove the typed work and insert a fresh sheet of paper.  This gives the hands and arms a regular rest, as well as using different muscle groups and tendons.

    Lilian Malt and Stephen Hobday developed the Malt key layout and Maltron keyboard.

    They have published several academic papers which address keyboarding related injuries and keyboard design:

    http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/ac … apers.html
    http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/ac … tress.html
    http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/ac … tress.html
    http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/ac … order.html

    The result has been a series of keyboards for one and two hand use, as well for people with various disabilities.
    640px_dsc_3424.jpg
    (Stephen Hobday)
    singlert_350x233.jpg


    I trained as a court reporter in 1990 (having learned to touch-type in 1967 on a QWERTY keyboard) and have been using a Maltron since 1986.  Since this work involves transcribing audio at the speed of speech (around 120-200 wpm) for many hours at a stretch I consider myself a prime candidate for an overuse syndrome attack, but have never had any such problem.

    At present there are ongoing discussions with Maltron as to whether they should offer the Colemak key distribution to complement the Malt, QWERTY and Dvorak layouts already on offer.
    https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1314

    It's a big commitment, both financially and psychologically, to change a keyboard and learn a new layout, but 25 plus years after changing from QWERTY to Maltron I have never had a moment's regret.  On the financial side, because the Maltron uses Cherry key switches, there is a high degree of reliability.  I've got four computers and four dual hand Maltrons (plus two single handers) and I'm still using my very first 1986 keyboard, with no sign of any mechanical or electrical problems.  Although the Maltrons are considered to be expensive relative to many other keyboards, when amortized over the whole period, the cost has been pretty well negligible.

    Joe

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    There's another reason why RSI would be more prevalent these days.

    People are making much more intensive use of the mouse.

    I've been trying to cut back on my mouse usage in the past 18 months or so, and I've found it's been the single most beneficial change I've made in terms of wrist and forearm discomfort.

    I'd personally like to go totally mouseless, but sadly there is far too much software out there whose keyboard support is incompetent at best and outright malicious at worst. For example, there is one program I have used that actually disables Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V for cut, copy and paste.

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    James: How about the "OS"/"Multimedia" cut/copy/paste keys? I have those in my PKL Extend layer (Caps+X/C/V) and they should work in all modes...

    I feel that the Extend mappings in general reduce mouse use by a comfortable amount for me.

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    Depends how your extended layer works and how the program was written in the first place. Even so, Ctrl+X/C/V are built into the operating system, so disabling them would need you to write extra code to intercept the keystrokes concerned. It's not difficult to do, but borderline malicious and almost certainly a violation of numerous accessibility laws as well.

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    Uh, it's called Portable Keyboard Layout (PKL) and I really thought you had heard about it! :)

    I've no idea what accessibility laws you're talking about, but I don't see how a low-level keyboard hook (AutoHotKey works pretty much like Visual Basic in that respect) can violate laws when used for this particular purpose.

    And you aren't intercepting the Ctrl+XCV keystrokes but the Caps+XCV ones and then sending OS Copy/Cut/Paste key events into the input stream. They are the key events Multimedia keyboards with Cut/Copy/Paste keys use, and work pretty much like the usual Ctrl+XCV functionality but not by any program's hotkey list since they send the edit commands directly. When it works, it's fine - but sometimes a program doesn't support edit events and then you're outta luck.

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    No, it wouldn't be broken at all. The Ctrl+XCV shortcuts wouldn't be touched in any way!

    Okay, try to wrap your head around what I'm saying here now although it's a bit techy:

    • Ctrl+XCV are shortcuts in many programs, usually leading to cutting/copying/pasting-type behavior. But it's up to the program.
    • The Cut/Copy/Paste key events are used by Multimedia-type keyboards to send special Cut/Copy/Paste key codes.
    • These keys do not send the Ctrl+XCV keystrokes to the program at all, but the multimedia-type key strokes.
    • Those commands usually result in cutting/copying/pasting-type behavior
    • They tend to work a little more consistently too... provided the program in question uses the Windows API correctly.
    • Most programs do these days.
    • I'm using Caps+XCV to send the multimedia-type key events to the OS' input stream. I'm not touching Ctrl+XCV at all.
    • Under Windows (using PKL or AutoHotKey directly), that works for me nearly all the time I'm happy to say.

    Hope that's clearer to you! :)

    I see that James' mistake was to either not read closely enough when I wrote 'Caps' or misread me in another way to construe some sort of Ctrl+XCV-wrecking behavior on my behalf. I guess I'll have to challenge him to a waterpistol duel or something to uphold my honor... ;)

    Last edited by DreymaR (21-Sep-2012 14:20:53)

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    Tony_VN said:

    This book may be helpful to you:

    Complete Guide to Repetitive Strain Injury, Emil Pascarelli, PhD
    https://vivaa.ca/download/doc_download/ … njury.html

    Some excerpts

    Computer keyboards

    No other piece of computer equipment has had more design research and gone through more style changes than the computer keyboard. Research has focused on key placement, size, adjustability, touch, key pressure, and technical design. Still, the keyboard that suits everyone has not yet appeared.

    What kind of keyboard should you buy? Choosing a keyboard can be confusing, as there are so many available at a wide range of prices. When you buy a new computer, it comes with a standard keyboard, and if it is not comfortable or is causing you pain, you will want to get one that suits your needs better. As mentioned in chapter 2, the elbow carrying angle, which varies from person to person, will affect the way you place your handsas you hit the keys. The greater your carrying angle, the greater the likelihood that you will need a split keyboard. In any case, I believe a split keyboard is generally a good choice for everyone.

    https://img703.imageshack.us/img703/1844/ergokbd1.jpg

    Virtually all keyboards now on the market have the cheaper-to-manufacture membrane cushioning for keys, rather than the more desirable individual spring loading for each key, which is best for good touch feedback. Basically, three types of keyboards are available: traditional, fixed split, and adjustable split.

    The traditional keyboard is supplied with most home computers and is usually what you will find at your workstation. Some are available with a number pad on the right side, while others are alphanumeric or have a separate number keyboard.

    The fixed split keyboard has a split at an angle of about twenty-four degrees and a slight downward taper on each end, which takes the hand slightly out of the palms-down position. The number pad, on the right side, is flat. The palm apron along the front edge of these keyboards is not ergonomically sound—don’t rely on it to support your palms. Small legs that prop up the far end of the keyboard should not be used, since they encourage extending your wrist, as when pushing a door open, a harmful posture. If you purchase this type of keyboard, make sure you have the right size of pullout tray.

    There are several varieties of adjustable keyboards. These keyboards can be placed in the traditional position, angled, and even tented so the hands are no longer in the palms-down position but are held somewhere between palms up and palms down.

    https://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8260/ergokbd2a.jpg

    According to Dr. Alan Hedge, an ergonomics researcher at Cornell University, keying with the palms in a vertical position, as in playing an accordion, allows the forearm tendons, which move the fingers, to work more easily. Since you cannot see the keys in this position, it is difficult or impossible for a nontouch typist to use one, so vertical mirrors are installed on each side.

    Many of the people who feel uncomfortable in the palms-down position at the keyboard have tight forearm pronator and supinator muscles, which need to be stretched. By placing the adjustable keyboard at a tented angle of approximately thirty degrees they might feel more comfortable during their retraining. See chapter 6 for details on exercises.


    Its a pretty good book BTW for the general info regarding keyboards and their functionality.

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