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    Discomfort on my left hand after one week

    • Started by khelben
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    • Registered: 31-Aug-2012
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    Hi,

      I've been using Colemak for two weeks now. A guy on my company gave a talk about Colemak and that he was using it for the past years, and I give it a try to see...

      I've been using a "cold turkey" approach, and I've use a tutor to learn it (I use Master Key on OSX). For the first week everything was OK, but after that, I felt a little discomfort on my left hand. Calling that "pain" will be too much, but is not something that goes out if I stop typing. By the way, the first day I experienced it, I stopped using the computer for the whole weekend, to try to relax, as my initial idea is that I was over training... The feeling on my left hand/forearm didn't dissapeared, not even just when I woke up, and then the monday I had no choice but to go to work and type. I took that easy, type slowly (but still using Colemak) for the last week, and not training at all...
      Right now is more or less on the same point as the monday. It is not stopping me to type (and I clearly note that I am more confortable with Colemak), but I am not sure what to do. Precisely my idea of changing was to avoid long-term problems, as I am aware that, as a software developer, I work with my hands, and I will like to be careful with that...

      Some comments:
        - I had never experience any kind of discomfort using QWERTY, except for pushing me in training trying to go quick (if I did too many TypeRacer races, for example), but that goes out after resting a reasonable amount of time.
        - When I use Colemak, it looks like I am leaving my fingers over the keys when I am not doing anything. That's probably because I am training to touch-type. When I use QWERTY, my fingers are not located directly over the letters. This "resting position" feels a little awkward, specially on my left hand.
        - Another thing I have notice, is that I keep my wrists low, maybe even touching the desk. I tried to raise the hands for a more "standard" position, but then my arms get tired very quickly. I doesn't seem to see any kind of effect (relief, etc) for raising them, but, as I say, my arms get tired and I naturally lower them. I think I keep my arms sightly higher when typing on QWERTY.
         - Another point is the use of CAPS. If I use QWERTY, it seems that, when I hav to type a Cap, I  use the opposing SHIFT. Bt if I have to type a full word in all CAPS, I use only one (the one on the starting letter) and use it all the way down until finishing the word. I just adjust the fingers to type each letter. When doing that on Colemak, I have to be alternating one letter at the time, which is slow and stressful.

      I am feeling a little confused about all that, as Colemak is supposed to help with this kind of issues. Should I go back to QWERTY? Should I try to rest, because maybe I'm not giving enough time to my hands to get use to Colemak? Any ideas?

      Thanks!

    Last edited by khelben (31-Aug-2012 23:23:22)
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    That is normal. You are learning to touch type the first time. Your ring fingers and pinkies are not used to typing.
    If the pain persists, you may go back to QWerty and try Colemak another time.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (01-Sep-2012 03:02:01)
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    Regarding all-caps, that's what the beloved caps-lock is for!  If you have turned caps-lock into a backspace - you might want to try sticky keys, it really does take some pressure off of those simultaneous key presses.  It will free your wrist up a little as well.  It could help in the short-term at least.

    Sean Wrona (fast typist) explained on this forum that he uses caps-lock for all his capitalisation of letters, to avoid mistakes and free his hands up a little.

    I found when learning to touch type that minor deviations in the wrist angle can cause pain.  Try and keep the wrists straight - knuckles level with wrists.

    This user has quite a nasty angle going on with their left wrist:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nYp94TX5b0

    It shows quite clearly what results from the keyboard's left sided crappy stagger.  The backspace on caps-lock with Colemak might exacerbate the problem.  As you say  your home row diligence under your new layout is probably not helping, which will dissipate in time.  Perhaps try homing the pinkies as opposed to the index fingers (you might need to add bumps.)

    Sometimes when I straighten up the left wrist, I end up sticking my arm out a little, which in turn causes an asymmetry in my upper body.  Probably not good either.  Having said that Dvorak is really easy on the left hand. I don't know how I'd cope with another layout.  I'd probably go for Dreymar's wide mod (might be worth looking into if you get desperate.)

    Also check your keyboard height.

    Last edited by pinkyache (01-Sep-2012 05:46:05)

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    Tony_VN said:

    That is normal. You are learning to touch type the first time. Your ring fingers and pinkies are not used to typing.
    If the pain persists, you may go back to QWerty and try Colemak another time.

    I am able to touch type in QWERTY, and I use all my fingers... I've been also doing some training to improve my touch typing (in qwerty) in the recent months. That's why I originally get MasterKey. I was previously using all my fingers in not a very ortodox way of, but using all my fingers. Since then, I've been improving my speed and accuracy.

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    pinkyache said:

    Regarding all-caps, that's what the beloved caps-lock is for!  If you have turned caps-lock into a backspace - you might want to try sticky keys, it really does take some pressure off of those simultaneous key presses.  It will free your wrist up a little as well.  It could help in the short-term at least.

    Sean Wrona (fast typist) explained on this forum that he uses caps-lock for all his capitalisation of letters, to avoid mistakes and free his hands up a little.

    I use Caps-lock as CTRL, I've been doing that for a while, and I tried to replace that with backspace, but that was very confusing. I have been never able to properly use caps-lock. I keep hitting caps for each individual letter...

    pinkyache said:

    I found when learning to touch type that minor deviations in the wrist angle can cause pain.  Try and keep the wrists straight - knuckles level with wrists.

    This user has quite a nasty angle going on with their left wrist:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nYp94TX5b0

    It shows quite clearly what results from the keyboard's left sided crappy stagger.  The backspace on caps-lock with Colemak might exacerbate the problem.  As you say  your home row diligence under your new layout is probably not helping, which will dissipate in time.  Perhaps try homing the pinkies as opposed to the index fingers (you might need to add bumps.)

    Sometimes when I straighten up the left wrist, I end up sticking my arm out a little, which in turn causes an asymmetry in my upper body.  Probably not good either.  Having said that Dvorak is really easy on the left hand. I don't know how I'd cope with another layout.  I'd probably go for Dreymar's wide mod (might be worth looking into if you get desperate.)

    Also check your keyboard height.

    Mmmm, when I set the fingers, I am really setting all the four fingers on each hand over the keys, to get the reference about where I am...


    My discomfort is not on the wrist, though. It is more on the forearm and the pinkie and, specially, on the ring finger. I've tried to change my wrist position, but it doesn't seem to help. As I told before, it is not disappearing when I rest, which is the thing that bothers me more.... :-/

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    Oh, and BTW, my right hand is prefect, I have look very carefully about my right hand position , and I can see what is different from my left hand position (if any)

    Another thing, I remember when I was doing qwerty exercises, that I got my left hand tired when doing home row exercises, writing words like "alfalfa", etc... Not sure if it is related, as it was recovering after a few minutes...

    Last edited by khelben (01-Sep-2012 10:24:33)
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    Yes, it's quite normal to get tired after some of these exercises. You'll get some endurance with time and you won't feel tired. At the moment your hands and fingers are adjusting to the changes. All you can do is take regular breaks and stop for a while when pain occurs.

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    Possibly teething issues then (don't underestimate the burden of training.)  The typing exercises can hammer my hands and fingers.  I still find them difficult.  However typing free 'normal' text doesn't present the same problem.

    Which practice texts are you using?  I find one handed exercises really challanging.  It's something I've been trying recently.  In practice though you don't actually do much of this style on a daily basis - at least you don't with Dvorak because of the hand alternation.

    This week I put in a bit of practice, had a great day with a high burst rate (in the 90s,) shortly after - and since then I have suffered with hand and shoulder aches.  I probably over did it.  Interestingly I  didn't feel any strain at the time.

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    Weirdly the faster and more fluent you become - as you probably are under Qwerty - your fingers mail feel less strained.  When you first start out you're being more thoughtful and slow about typing, which is probably an added stress.

    Last edited by pinkyache (01-Sep-2012 14:40:13)

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    Looking back, after touch typing in Qwerty for 17 years I felt constrained when switching to Colemak, since my hands now mostly rest on the home row instead of top row to reach t and e in Qwerty.
    After a while it became the trademarked Colemak typing feel. It's calm and relaxing.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (01-Sep-2012 13:56:13)
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    Good point from Tony about the finger placement under Qwerty.  I'd have thought the right hand also would linger more over the vowels than the home row - fingers in more of an arc than a straight line.  Which is probably more comfortable to some degree.

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    pinkyache said:

    Which practice texts are you using?  I find one handed exercises really challanging.  It's something I've been trying recently.  In practice though you don't actually do much of this style on a daily basis - at least you don't with Dvorak because of the hand alternation.

    I use Master Key, which is a Mac OS X tutor. It has some exercises to learn the letters, and then you can do generated drills, that are random and don't make much sense... :-)

    I have found that exercises using only the home row, both in qwerty and Colemak are more stressful, probably for that... You end doing repeated times one hand only words, like (in QWERTY) "lad", "lass", "alfalfa", etc (I remember the ones on the left hand)

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    A food of thought:

    I built a desk so that the body position is almost identical to play a piano. The keyboard is right below the horizontal line of elbows. The angle between hand and forearm is almost zero degree.

    It took a week to get used this floating elbow position.  I think it releases subtle tension from hand, fingers, and wrist when elbow sit on flat surface while typing.

    Debian GNU/Linux Jessie NitroType TypeTest

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    @penguin can you clarify as to whether you are resting your forearm while you are typing?  And whether your elbow is sitting on the desk?  Is this really a good feeling?  Are you using a flat keyboard?

    I get pretty much immediate discomfort when using a 'normal' writer's desk with keyboard on top (I mean how many offices do you visit where they use keyboard trays or place the keyboard at the correct height?)  Your shoulders hunch a little.  I appreciate that you have your keyboard by the sounds of things at a lower level.  To get a similar position on a writing desk -  I have to then raise the chair to compensate and then place something under my feet.  I was using a piano stool for a while, but my desk height is so broke that I've just abandoned the desk for now - good reminder that I need to sort something out!

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    @pinkyache

    The keyboard sits on the desk actually 2cm or 3cm below the elbow height. From elbows to the fingers are in the air all the time when I type. I use a flat mechanical keyboard.

    If you have a power saw and basic wood working tools, you can build a custom desk less than $50.00. I'll build another desk soon for my workshop.

    Debian GNU/Linux Jessie NitroType TypeTest

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    Yeah a good idea in making your own.  Can we have a picture please?

    Last edited by pinkyache (06-Sep-2012 10:19:47)

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    @pinkyache

    The height of desk is 56cm. (My knee height on seat position is 53cm.) I used old desk's top plate, and made four legs out of 2x4 outdoor wood. As you see in the photo, front left leg is bent inward.
    four legs, two side bar, four L braket, wood screws (3cm x12), wood screws (5cm to 8cm x20).

    I forgot to install the adjustable foot for the legs which is handy for leveling desk.

    mydesk.jpg

    Last edited by penguin (09-Sep-2012 05:39:39)

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