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    Shortcuts in other languages

    • Started by shalmu
    • 12 Replies:
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    • Registered: 09-Oct-2012
    • Posts: 18

    Since I have switched to colemak, some shortcuts, like Ctrl+S  Ctrl+F  Ctrl+T have moved, and it's ok, it's only a matter of time to learn it. But when I use another language, for example Russian or Hebrew - these shortcuts go back again as if I am in qwerty again! Is it possible to solve it somehow? Because it confuses the whole learning curve and I want to get rid of the qwerty totally.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    You mean, when you use the standard Russian/Hebrew layouts? They relate to QWERTY (YAWERTY etc) so the shortcuts are in those places yes.

    I recommend using phonetic Colemak cyrillic/hebrew layouts if you're really into Colemak.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    I'm not sure if I understand your problem correctly but if I do, you can do what I did (assuming you use Windows):

    Install Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator, and open the Colemak layout from the OS layouts. Then change the keys of the layout to whichever symbols you want (basically match the original Russian or Hebrew layout) and make a new layout with the result. This way the Ctrl+key shortcuts will be the same as on Colemak on these new layouts.

    If that's what you actually wanted...

    Last edited by pafkata90 (09-Oct-2012 21:39:04)
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    Well, yes, DreymaR, I am really into this, but I don't think that using phonetic cyrillic is a good idea, since most popular letters, as well as digrams in Russian don't have much in common with English. Hence I will still use classic russian keyboard and use pafkata's method. Thank you for help!

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    Did you see for instance the Rulemak by ghen (again, follow my link)?

    Letter frequencies is one thing for sure, and although I and Checkit and others looked at the European languages and found Colemak assuringly adequate for them I see that it may be very different for the Slavic and other languages. But I'll wager the Rulemak for instance is still a good shot more ergonomic for a Russian typist than the horrible horrible classic layout?

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 09-Oct-2012
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    Well, I must agree, Russian classic layout, although was created with ergonomics in mind, it was created so long ago, afar from the computer analysis era, and it has a lot of problems.
    OK, I am convinced now - at least I should give it a try and compare to a traditional Russian layout. Thank you!

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    Or you can go the route I took and make your own layout for Russian (I did for Bulgarian). It might take you weeks of research, analysis and tests until you make your first version (judging by me) but it's a great fun project.

    I'd used phonetic Colemak for maybe a couple of months before, and I can say I'm much happier with the layout I ended up making. And I suppose it would be easier for you if you make it for Russian, because there's probably already a lot of analysis out there. When I started, apparently no one had done anything like that before, so I had to even do the letter frequency analysis, cause the ones I found were quite old and not very accurate, as it turned out.

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    pafkata90, I wish I knew how to do that. Do we have any tool for analysis, or maybe you have a solid piece of advice for me on that, since you already have done it? Because I hardly imagine how to do that.

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    You can see my topic here https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1206

    There a pal from the forum BvoFRak gives me a great excel spreadsheet to analyze layouts. I've translated it to English and modified it to fit my needs. You can see the original from the topic, and here is the one I've been using (including the layouts) here https://www.dropbox.com/s/djbhaivm2qatw … 0v3.1.xlsm

    You can change it around to fit your needs.

    PS: Remember to enable macros and press "Refresh Pivot Tables" after changes to the layouts, to update all the data.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (22-Oct-2012 11:32:47)
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    Wow, this spreadsheet is too complex for me :) Furthermore, my OpenOffice opens it with errors. I guess I will try the phonetic Colemak for now

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    Yes, if you're not familiar with Excel, figuring out how exactly it works can be difficult. And yes, OpenOffice has limitations when it comes to spreadsheets, compared to MS Excel. I might be wrong but I also think it doesn't support macros at all.

    Maybe someone else can help you with another software but this is what I used.

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    Thank you anyway. Maybe you could share your Bulgarian layout? I wonder if it looks sane for me at the first glance (from a Russian tongue point of view of course).

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    Sure. I think it looks decent. nothing weird other than the comma and period placement. The usage percentage on the picture is 99.95, cause some of the used symbols are on the number row and the spreadsheet is not analysing that.
    _wK7oblmbQJufGAaJj1yz2BsA0xUtc_PbwxqD1Nm5p4
    Some stats. Bear in mind that I use these mainly to compare two layouts within the spread sheet. They might differ from what you can get from different analyzers due to the way they're calculated:

    distance 133.39 cm (colemak-phonetic: 157.11)
    same finger ratio 1.78% (Colemak ph 4.25%)
    hand alternation 79.7% – you can't get higher than this (Colemak ph 56.6%)
    Row jumps 0.49% (Colemak ph 2.08%)
    Home/Bottom row usage 71.8/8.8% (Colemak ph 67/18.2%)

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