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    Touch-typing, spanish (latam), programming and vim

    • Started by pablox
    • 11 Replies:
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    • Registered: 31-Oct-2012
    • Posts: 5

    First of all... I don't touch type... I write around 60-70 wpm with my self-learned way (I don't look the keyboard, but I don't use every finger either). I've been doing this for a while so I really don't know if I still can learn to touch type correctly. Anyway, I was thinking in learning to touch type when I remembered about the colemak layout.

    I'm ask this, because I found that using a latam layout (main layout in my country, Chile) has some annoyances when programming or using vim (backtick ` for example it's altgr + } + space). That was leading me to try to learn to use an us layout when programming (or just use an us layout everywhere).

    I don't know if someone has some experience to share about this or tip. Should I try to learn touch type with my actual layout? or just start learning in colemak?

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    Either way would be better than Qwerty. Colemak would be most efficient of the two.

    After learning Colemak you will discover a way to work with your native language. Many Koreans, Chinese, and we Vietnamese do so.

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    • Registered: 30-Oct-2012
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    Learning a new layout is a good way to reprogram yourself and learn to type better, if you developed bad habits

    If you're programming I suggest merging Colemak letters with Programmer Dvorak punctuation by using this
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

    I made an english installer of it, but you probably need punctuation I didn't bother with

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    If you check out my sig topic, there's a 'Universal Symbols' latam Colemak there that has the sensible symbol key placements of the US layout including a working backtick. At the same time it has all the power of a optimized and enhanced layout. It may be what you're looking for. (There's one of those topics for Linux and one for Windows.)

    For Vim, I recommend the Extend layer that lets you use the same navigation keys not only for Vim but all the time.

    Last edited by DreymaR (31-Oct-2012 16:29:13)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Tony_VN said:

    Either way would be better than Qwerty. Colemak would be most efficient of the two.

    After learning Colemak you will discover a way to work with your native language. Many Koreans, Chinese, and we Vietnamese do so.

    Thanks, I guess I can start learning colemak then =).

    Garquill said:

    Learning a new layout is a good way to reprogram yourself and learn to type better, if you developed bad habits

    If you're programming I suggest merging Colemak letters with Programmer Dvorak punctuation by using this
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

    I made an english installer of it, but you probably need punctuation I didn't bother with

    Thanks for tips. I'm gonna definitely gonna start learning colemak. I was scared that seeing that I had bad habits I didn't have any hope. I thought by saying that I was using vim it was implied that I wasn't using windows. Anyway, I think I can do something similar or extract the ideas.

    DreymaR said:

    If you check out my sig topic, there's a 'Universal Symbols' latam Colemak there that has the sensible symbol key placements of the US layout including a working backtick. At the same time it has all the power of a optimized and enhanced layout. It may be what you're looking for. (There's one of those topics for Linux and one for Windows.)

    I've read through your posts more than once and I still can't understand what do they mean =/, at least I know that I have to patch the files, but I'm a bit scared because I'm not using Ubuntu and it's going to give me a lot of head aches later (I'm using Arch Linux) updating the system. I've to come with some idea to overcome that, maybe with "patched" xorg-keyboard (I believe that's the name of the package).

    DreymaR said:

    For Vim, I recommend the Extend layer that lets you use the same navigation keys not only for Vim but all the time.

    I don't understand that concept D:, can you explain it again?

    Thanks everyone for your comments, they have proven to be very useful :)

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    • Registered: 01-Nov-2012
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    Hey, I'm from Chile too - maybe I know you from somewhere? ;) Just started using Colemak, and I agree, the latam layout isn't the best for programming. However, the most common one ("Spanish") is even worse! The {} symbols aren't even on the same keys as [], and you have to use AltGr for both.

    Like you I'm also having trouble learning the US layout. But you know what, I actually find it that much harder than Colemak itself! If I was already used to the US layout, I'd have little trouble learning Colemak.

    pablox said:
    DreymaR said:

    If you check out my sig topic, there's a 'Universal Symbols' latam Colemak there that has the sensible symbol key placements of the US layout including a working backtick. At the same time it has all the power of a optimized and enhanced layout. It may be what you're looking for. (There's one of those topics for Linux and one for Windows.)

    I've read through your posts more than once and I still can't understand what do they mean =/, at least I know that I have to patch the files, but I'm a bit scared because I'm not using Ubuntu and it's going to give me a lot of head aches later (I'm using Arch Linux) updating the system. I've to come with some idea to overcome that, maybe with "patched" xorg-keyboard (I believe that's the name of the package).

    I'm using Fedora right now but I've used Arch in the past (and loved it). One thing I noticed is that when you update a package, and the updated files are different from the files in your system, the package manager throws an error, telling you which files are causing the conflict. You can just delete or rename these files, update the package, and then reinstall the Colemak patches over the updated files.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    Ah. Well, these distros all use the X server so my files aren't really all that Ubuntu specific. If you want to use my 'instdiff' script have a look inside it; there's a 'X11DIR' variable that should match the path to your X11 directory which may vary between distros. Also, there's a '-t' option for the script that allows you to run a test patching; if that works then the files are the right version and everything should work perfectly.

    The 'ub' tag on the file names mainly shows you what X11 version to expect. Usually the XKB files aren't changed between Ubuntu versions (although it did happen once that I know of). If you try a fairly recent version it should probably match - and if it doesn't then the '-t' test run should tell you that.

    Using the Wide mod(s) may be a bit tricky on some distros. On standard Ubuntu for instance, you have to edit the keyboard model manually in /etc/default/keyboards. On XUbuntu it's easier as you can set the keyboard model in the settings manager.

    Sorry if the descriptions of my mods are obscure. I wish I knew what parts don't make sense... See, I made a set of AltGr mappings that I really like myself (Colemak[eD]); those are the basis for my international variants. Then I provide one variant with all the symbol keys the way they are in that locale's default keyboard layout; then your keys will do what's printed on the keys but I don't prefer that myself. Instead, I change a few lesser-used mappings to provide the most needed characters for each locale. For you, that's ñ and some dead key that's otherwise a bit hard to reach in the default setup. So the Spanish/LatAm 'us' layout has those characters in easy-to-reach places. (Since I have trouble switching between Wide and nonWide layouts the images show a Wide setup but you can choose whether you like that or not!)

       Cmk-X-eD-us-awide-sl_crop.png   Cmk-X-eD-es-usym+latam-awide-sl_crop.png
       The Spanish/LatAm 'us' Colemak[eD] only differs from the usual 'us' layout in three keys,
          for the ñ (LSGT key) and easy accents (bracket keys)
       The brackets move to AltGr positions (which is good when you're typing Spanish;
          when you're coding use the default 'us' layout!)

    The Extend layer is completely brilliant and I like it as much as I like Colemak itself! It means that pressing down CapsLock all the other keys get a new meaning and UNEI becomes the arrow keys (useful for Vim) etc etc. Under Windows it's pure magic to press Caps+S(=Shift)+T(=Ctrl)+N(=Left) to select the previous word, and it feels very easy to remember as well! Again, it's described in the Big Bag topic.

    Last edited by DreymaR (01-Nov-2012 10:07:48)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 30-Oct-2012
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    Oh sorry. I'm not sure what VIM is then. I thought it was a programming program I once used on Windows.

    Last edited by Garquill (01-Nov-2012 17:05:09)
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    fomp said:

    Hey, I'm from Chile too - maybe I know you from somewhere? ;)

    Really? From where :P.

    fomp said:

    Just started using Colemak, and I agree, the latam layout isn't the best for programming. However, the most common one ("Spanish") is even worse! The {} symbols aren't even on the same keys as [], and you have to use AltGr for both.

    Like you I'm also having trouble learning the US layout. But you know what, I actually find it that much harder than Colemak itself! If I was already used to the US layout, I'd have little trouble learning Colemak.

    Thanks for the idea, I started yesterday :B

    fomp said:
    pablox said:
    DreymaR said:

    If you check out my sig topic, there's a 'Universal Symbols' latam Colemak there that has the sensible symbol key placements of the US layout including a working backtick. At the same time it has all the power of a optimized and enhanced layout. It may be what you're looking for. (There's one of those topics for Linux and one for Windows.)

    I've read through your posts more than once and I still can't understand what do they mean =/, at least I know that I have to patch the files, but I'm a bit scared because I'm not using Ubuntu and it's going to give me a lot of head aches later (I'm using Arch Linux) updating the system. I've to come with some idea to overcome that, maybe with "patched" xorg-keyboard (I believe that's the name of the package).

    I'm using Fedora right now but I've used Arch in the past (and loved it). One thing I noticed is that when you update a package, and the updated files are different from the files in your system, the package manager throws an error, telling you which files are causing the conflict. You can just delete or rename these files, update the package, and then reinstall the Colemak patches over the updated files.

    Yes, it's true. Though still it isn't a very ciean way... I'm used to arch elegance so force updates it's not something that I like. Anyway, I believe I can make a AUR patched package for xkeyboard-config.

    DreymaR said:

    Ah. Well, these distros all use the X server so my files aren't really all that Ubuntu specific. If you want to use my 'instdiff' script have a look inside it; there's a 'X11DIR' variable that should match the path to your X11 directory which may vary between distros. Also, there's a '-t' option for the script that allows you to run a test patching; if that works then the files are the right version and everything should work perfectly.

    The 'ub' tag on the file names mainly shows you what X11 version to expect. Usually the XKB files aren't changed between Ubuntu versions (although it did happen once that I know of). If you try a fairly recent version it should probably match - and if it doesn't then the '-t' test run should tell you that.

    Using the Wide mod(s) may be a bit tricky on some distros. On standard Ubuntu for instance, you have to edit the keyboard model manually in /etc/default/keyboards. On XUbuntu it's easier as you can set the keyboard model in the settings manager.

    I don't understand what do you mean by "Wide mod". Do you just mean using a 104/105 instead 101/102 keyboard?

    EDIT: After reading, I understand that I can move the "home keys" a bit more and add some keys in-between?

    DreymaR said:

    Sorry if the descriptions of my mods are obscure. I wish I knew what parts don't make sense... See, I made a set of AltGr mappings that I really like myself (Colemak[eD]); those are the basis for my international variants. Then I provide one variant with all the symbol keys the way they are in that locale's default keyboard layout; then your keys will do what's printed on the keys but I don't prefer that myself. Instead, I change a few lesser-used mappings to provide the most needed characters for each locale. For you, that's ñ and some dead key that's otherwise a bit hard to reach in the default setup. So the Spanish/LatAm 'us' layout has those characters in easy-to-reach places. (Since I have trouble switching between Wide and nonWide layouts the images show a Wide setup but you can choose whether you like that or not!)

       https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14504410/Keybo … l_crop.png   https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/145 … l_crop.png
       The Spanish/LatAm 'us' Colemak[eD] only differs from the usual 'us' layout in three keys,
          for the ñ (LSGT key) and easy accents (bracket keys)
       The brackets move to AltGr positions (which is good when you're typing Spanish;
          when you're coding use the default 'us' layout!)

    Ok, now I'm starting to understand. Though seeing the image you posted, I don't see why a key like ¨ (diéresis) it's so easily accessible (I mean, it is too on latam keyboards) but I don't remember the last time I used it.On the other hand, the altgr + letter to do the áéíóúñ it's ok for me, so I guess I can stick with the us layout :).

    DreymaR said:

    The Extend layer is completely brilliant and I like it as much as I like Colemak itself! It means that pressing down CapsLock all the other keys get a new meaning and UNEI becomes the arrow keys (useful for Vim) etc etc. Under Windows it's pure magic to press Caps+S(=Shift)+T(=Ctrl)+N(=Left) to select the previous word, and it feels very easy to remember as well! Again, it's described in the Big Bag topic.

    Hey, that seems pretty cool and I loved it. The only issue that I'm getting used to use the caps lock as Ctrl key D:, anyway I get the idea :D.

    Garquill said:

    Oh sorry. I'm not sure what VIM is then. I thought it was a programming program I once used on Windows.

    Don't worry, vim is one of the most famous text editors, https://www.vi-improved.org/.

    Last edited by pablox (02-Nov-2012 00:19:41)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Yes, the Wide mod means moving the right-hand keys one step to the right (easier access for the pinky keys and more balanced finger load, plus better hand separation especially on smaller boards). More important to me is the Angle mod where the left-hand bottom keys go to the left so you don't have to twist the wrist inwards for ZXCV and B is easier to reach. In my files it's implemented as a keyboard model so it can be selected independently of which layout you're using! You could type WideAngle QWERTY if you wanted to (my wife does).

    If you're okay with using AltGr then it's easy enough. I couldn't live with that on my own (Norwegian) layout eventually. As for the diaeresis, never mind that because it just follows the position on the Spanish/Latam standard keyboards above the acute. It's the easily reachable acute that's the main point.

    Last edited by DreymaR (02-Nov-2012 12:59:25)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Pablox: I got your email about patching for another Linux distro, but my mail setup doesn't let me answer Forum mail. It's interesting enough to post here anyway. ;)

    So, you got quite a lot of fuzz/offset when patching; that could be okay I guess but then again we never know.

    If you check my topic again you'll find a link to the original and modified files. You could try a 3-way patch with your files, will that be better you think?

    If you make a nice patch file, let's make it available in the main topic for other users of that distro! :)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 31-Oct-2012
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    Sounds a great idea :), I never thought about that :B. I have some questions, but I'm gonna ask them there.

    I started learning colemak :) with gtypist (terminal lover <3). I'm gonna post my experiences in the corresponding post though.

    Thanks everyone again!

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