I was under the impression that you at first started with a high layout, and then switched to a low layout.
Why did you decide against using the 0 key for a minus? (or even having two minuses on the numpad layer).
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Introducing Allenak
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Maybe I did? I'm supporting the high one now. Like you, I see benefits and drawbacks with both strategies. But the pull from laptops is significant, and after trying out both high and low layouts for a while I gravitated towards the former. The 789 keys are a good anchor.
The minus is right next to the 0 key, on the minus key. That's just too logical to pass up. Also, most NumPad layouts have them in this sequence: Divide, multiply, subtract. The divide key had to go to the / key which is fine with me.
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Of course this would be unnecessary if the keyboard companies had the good sense to do this in the first place, or had more widely adopted the embedded numberpad which is so common in laptop keyboards.
While I don't expect anyone to agree with me; I'd prefer the numberpad on the LEFT hand (right mouser), despite the horrible row stagger. My reasoning goes something like this:
A) Spreadsheets and data entry. How many miles have your hands clocked moving from the numberpad to the mouse and back again? You don't use the mouse for spread sheets? Ok, how many miles have your hands clocked moving from the numberpad to the arrow keys and back again? Or toggling the numlock? Numberpads and navigation should not be on the same hand.
B) We already have a numberpad on the right hand side of most keyboards. Heck, finding a keyboard WITHOUT a numberpad can be a chore.
C) ... ok, you've got me, there is no c.
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Ah, so you went for a correct horizontal sequence, instead of the correct vertical sequence.
Here is a pictorial representation of what I was thinking:
789-- //This would correspond to the mac version of numpad layout.
456+ //The [+] key is only one key high, with the [-] key right next to the 9.
123E //The [/] & [*] keys would have to go into a non-standard spot.
0,.The location where you put / makes sense, and I would likely use the same.
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I sometimes use a 10-key with my left hand. This works great if you have a stand-alone numpad. IMO, the stagger on the left hand is too much to use this on a 'normal' keyboard. If using an ortho-linear keyboard, this solution might make sense. . .
A) This is why I included an hkjl style arrow keys on my numlock layer. Arrow keys are awesome on the left hand for spreadsheet entry. Unfortunately this does not negate the use of a mouse.
B) It's getting easier to find. My next keyboard will be a minimalist style (but with a full size arrow keys). I need a 10-key, but that will be separate from the keyboard.
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There's quite some brain chattering going on here! I think you'll probably want to fix your head on keeping the hands homed, and try not to think about a seperate 10key numpad. Otherwise you'll be overwhelmed with additional factors to consider.
Last edited by pinkyache (13-Nov-2012 00:58:35)
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I understand your sentiment, but truthfully my brain needed a break. Downtime is great to allow the unconscious time to mull it over. I consider the 10-key numpad idea to be a nice diversion, instead of an addition to the workload. It allows me to work on Allenak, without 'working on Allenak'.
Although the two different layers are both part of the same project, I do not work on them as such. To me they are on two different planes of existence. The numpad would be akin to a spirit world. It affects things, but only indirectly.
Back to the letter layout... Since I will be referencing the last version, I will post it again here (to avoid needless scrolling):
ALLENAK VERSION 0.7.2
Letter Layer
qwly j b pru- - Note: Caps lock replaces the right Windows key.
athe f d snoi' - Note: Num lock replaces caps lock on standard keyboards.
zxcv k g m,.?
Shifted Letter Layer
QWLY J B PRU_
ATHE F D SNOI"
ZXCV K G M;:!First some obvious points:
The -_ key will be a + key on the numpad layer. This will be unacceptable, and for now the -_ key will go back to it's qwerty position.
The ' " key might take the position of the former -_ key. This is done to allow the former ' key to be a way of switching between layers. This is not a permanent change, and I need to think it over.
I use / way to much for it to only be on the numpad layer. The / ? key will return to it's qwerty position. I'm undecided on which one will appear on top. For now / can stay in the unshifted state, but this may change.
And now for some fundamental changes. . . I do not like how the right hand works. I'm no longer convinced about the merits of "rolling". I think it works great for the Ring/Middle/Index fingers, but I think it works horrible for the pinky. This leads to my 'new' philosophy.
The RMI fingers should roll as much as possible. Rolling inward is best, but rolling outward is acceptable.
The pinky finger should take an approach closer to Dvorak. Pinky rolling should be neither forbidden nor prioritized.
The layout will change considerably again, I'm just not sure to what... This is one possibility:
qwr l '
athe f d onis
zxcv g ,./The right hand looks like it will roll much better now... but with common vowels on both index fingers, SFU will be very high... I'll have to play around with it.
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ALLENAK VERSION 0.8
`1234 5 6 7890-= Letter Layer
qwry j k bsg' - Note: ※ = Num Lock
athe u l noid※
zxcv f p m,./
~!@#$ % ^ _+ Shifted Letter Layer
QWRY J K BSG"
ATHE U L NOID※
ZXCV F P M;:?
⟨‹« 789-- Num-Lock Layer
{[(< ≤ 456+ - Note: E = Enter
&|*/ = * 123E※
←↑↓→ ≈ 0,./
⟩›» Shifted Num-Lock Layer
}])> ≥ def°
^\ ! # abcE※
←↑↓→ £ $€¥%Offline
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ALLENAK VERSION 0.9 "Light"
`1234 5 6 7890-= Letter Layer
qwrf j k bdg;
sthe u l noia'
zxcv y p m,./
~!@#$ % ^ &*()_+
QWRF J K BDG:
STHE U L NOIA"
ZXCV Y P M<>?edit: I'm taking Pinkyache's advice and going with a simple layout change. I'll call this version "Light"
I haven't tested it through a key tester yet, but on paper it looks better. This is starting to look good enough, that I may actually try to learn it.
Although I tried to optimize it for rolling, that may also be a problem.
For example: 'atio' is the 14th most common 4-gram (score = 34, where 100 = 'that' (most common 4-gram)). "aio" is a very easy roll, however inserting a key in the middle of the roll may be cumbersome. . . Imagine the word 'ration'. A skilled typist with very good timing could probably type it quicker on Allenek than most other layouts, but a hasty typist with poor timing might end up using the backspace often.
I won't know until I actually try it out if this will be a problem or not. Even if this is problem, autocorrect may make it a mute point*. 'Imagination' will be a fun word to type regardless.
*Auto-corretion may not be as effective because it is more optimized to take note of transcription errors made on a QWERTY layout.
Last edited by Loonster (14-Nov-2012 16:55:01)
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Oh I wouldn't listen to me! I felt quite bad for trying to wean you off of your diversions! (Two years of touch typing with Dvorak, and I'm still not sure if I like it or not - there aren't many days when I don't feel some keyboard related pain. I must be doing something wrong.) It's still interesting reading your thought process.
Not sure I'd like the tilde up there, I detest that spot. Been using Gnome 3 for a few days, and was forced to ALT+` to switch between windows of an application. Hate hate hate. It was fine on the old Apple keyboard. Probably some stupid Apple fan boys from the Gnome team that sneaked that one in.
Last edited by pinkyache (14-Nov-2012 23:32:07)
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pinkyache said:
Oh I wouldn't listen to me! I felt quite bad for trying to wean you off of your diversions! (Two years of touch typing with Dvorak, and I'm still not sure if I like it or not - there aren't many days when I don't feel some keyboard related pain. I must be doing something wrong.) It's still interesting reading your thought process.
To steal a phrase from a religion that I am not a part of: Milk before Meat.
I'm not giving up on my diversion, but I am splitting it off as a secondary thought for power users. The idea doesn't work well enough on a standard keyboard for this idea to be standard in this layout (that was a mouthful). The idea really needs a thumb key to shine.
For now I'm done postings changes to the layout. There is not anything I hate about it right now. The only thing I currently dislike is the high SFU (same finger usage). It runs 3.4-4.4% depending upon the corpus. Around 1.2% comes from the 'CH' and 'EV' digraphs. Since I'm too stubborn to move any of those letters, I will have to deal with this high SFU.
The SHU comes in around 30-34%, split evenly between the hands. Most of the rolls are inward. Of the rolls that are outward, some of the outward rolls are purposely designed like that. For example, the ER digraph on the left hand. I find this to be very natural (I also consider the upper middle finger to be a semi-home row position).
In the coming days, I will post what research I have done, and what led me to the choices I made.
pinkyache said:
Not sure I'd like the tilde up there, I detest that spot. Been using Gnome 3 for a few days, and was forced to ALT+` to switch between windows of an application. Hate hate hate. It was fine on the old Apple keyboard. Probably some stupid Apple fan boys from the Gnome team that sneaked that one in.
I do not use Gnome, but I use Alt+tab all the time. Alt+` shouldn't be much harder (on a standard keyboard).
I hold down left alt with my thumb, and press tab with middle finger. I do this without looking at the keys. My thumb stays on the spacebar, and I slide my whole hand until my thumb is on the alt key, from there my middle finger naturally finds the tab key.
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This post will be very long.... it's only about frequency analysis, and not on my theories for composing a layout, or why I decided to make it.
The first couple of versions I only used a very basic analysis. It is useful, but it lacks in-depth information. It tells the order of the most common digraphs, but doesn't give numbers on how much more common some digraphs are then others. The most useful information listed here is:
The most common first letter in a word in order of frequency
T, O, A, W, B, C, D, S, F, M, R, H, I, Y, E, G, L, N, O, U, J, K
The most common second letter in a word in order of frequency
H, O, E, I, A, U, N, R, T
The most common third letter in a word in order of frequency
E, S, A, R, N, I
The most common last letter in a word in order of frequency
E, S, T, D, N, R, Y, F, L, O, G, H, A, K, M, P, U, W
Then I found this page which laid out the information in a nice matrix, with numbers corresponding to how frequent that digraph is. It also had a handy chart with the relative digraph and it's reverse.
This website was extremely useful, but the corpus it used wasn't as accurate as I wanted. I wanted something bigger. Eventually I stumbled upon Google's Trillion Word Corupus. With the aide of excel, I managed to build my own matrix style chart.
These charts could really use conditional formatting. I would advise copying them and pasting into excel. Then apply conditional formatting. More colors would be more useful, but excel only supports 4 (3 + default). I used:
Orange: x>=75
Yellow: 75>x>=50
Green: 50>x>=25
Relative Frequency
# e t a o i n r s l c h d u m p g f y b w v k x j z q #
e 20 32 41 11 12 57 88 72 28 30 4 43 4 22 14 9 11 6 9 15 11 2 10 1 3 e
t 60 14 31 51 59 2 20 22 5 5 99 2 12 4 3 1 3 11 3 6 1 t
a 1 60 1 1 15 78 51 32 47 24 2 17 6 17 11 14 4 12 11 3 9 5 1 1 1 1 a
o 3 24 6 13 5 75 64 15 17 10 2 11 39 28 14 7 33 2 6 15 9 5 1 1 o
i 18 45 14 34 1 ## 13 42 23 34 1 13 1 11 6 12 8 4 1 12 2 1 3 1 i
n 36 53 24 23 19 6 2 24 5 18 2 50 6 3 3 41 6 5 3 2 3 4 1 n
r 81 23 34 35 36 9 6 23 5 11 2 11 6 10 4 5 3 12 3 2 5 6 r
s 43 58 23 23 31 3 3 23 4 13 16 3 14 5 13 2 5 3 4 5 1 3 1 1 s
l 39 8 26 21 34 1 2 10 27 3 1 9 6 2 4 1 3 12 2 1 1 1 l
c 28 21 27 39 11 7 3 9 4 25 1 7 1 1 3 10 c
h 79 8 31 25 25 2 4 2 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 h
d 34 8 17 13 25 2 6 10 3 3 2 5 8 3 3 2 3 2 5 3 3 1 d
u 6 17 6 1 5 17 27 23 12 8 5 7 7 4 1 1 5 1 1 u
m 38 2 30 16 14 1 1 6 1 1 1 5 6 11 1 3 6 1 m
p 19 5 18 18 7 23 4 13 1 6 1 5 2 7 1 2 p
g 21 4 11 8 9 3 9 4 3 1 9 1 4 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 g
f 10 10 8 24 15 11 2 3 1 1 1 5 1 1 7 1 1 1 f
y 5 5 5 15 3 2 2 8 2 3 1 2 1 3 4 1 2 2 2 y
b 20 1 10 11 6 6 3 11 1 9 1 7 1 1 b
w 14 1 12 9 16 3 2 5 1 1 9 1 1 1 1 w
v 31 7 3 17 1 v
k 10 2 3 2 6 2 1 5 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 k
x 1 3 1 1 1 3 x
j 3 3 3 3 j
z 2 1 1 1 z
q 6 q
# e t a o i n r s l c h d u m p g f y b w v k x j z q #Most common digraphs and reverse
in ## 19 ni at 60 31 ta se 43 72 es ri 36 13 ir ve 31 11 ev ca 27 24 ac ac 24 27 ca il 23 34 li pe 19 14 ep am 17 30 ma
th 99 8 ht ti 59 45 it ed 43 34 de ro 35 64 or ta 31 60 at ur 27 6 ru na 24 78 an ts 22 58 st ie 18 12 ei ut 17 12 tu
er 88 81 re st 58 22 ts is 42 31 si de 34 43 ed si 31 42 is la 26 47 al rs 23 3 sr em 22 38 me pa 18 11 ap wi 16 1 iw
re 81 88 er en 57 36 ne ea 41 1 ae ra 34 51 ar ha 31 2 ah ch 25 1 hc so 23 15 os ct 21 5 tc nc 18 0 cn mo 16 28 om
he 79 4 eh nt 53 2 tn ng 41 3 gn io 34 5 oi ma 30 17 am hi 25 1 ih pr 23 4 rp ge 21 9 eg po 18 14 op sh 16 2 hs
an 78 24 na ar 51 34 ra ou 39 1 uo ic 34 11 ci ec 30 28 ce di 25 13 id rt 23 20 tr lo 21 17 ol ol 17 21 lo yo 15 2 oy
on 75 23 no to 51 24 ot le 39 28 el li 34 23 il om 28 16 mo ho 25 2 oh sa 23 32 as ee 20 20 ee da 17 17 ad ai 15 14 ia
es 72 43 se nd 50 2 dn co 39 10 oc of 33 24 fo ce 28 30 ec fo 24 33 of ss 23 23 ss be 20 9 eb ad 17 17 da ew 15 14 we
or 64 35 ro al 47 26 la me 38 22 em as 32 23 sa el 28 39 le ns 24 3 sn us 23 14 su tr 20 23 rt vi 17 12 iv ow 15 9 wo
te 60 32 et it 45 59 ti ne 36 57 en et 32 60 te ll 27 27 ll ot 24 51 to no 23 75 on ni 19 ## in un 17 6 nu os 15 23 soMost common trigraphs
the ## ers 22 you 18 sta 16 ted 14
ing 53 res 21 ons 18 tin 15 ont 14
and 53 her 20 our 18 hat 15 nce 14
ion 49 est 20 con 17 ist 15 sto 13
tio 40 com 20 are 17 ect 15 ith 13
ent 39 pro 19 tha 17 ort 15 nte 13
for 32 ere 19 ver 17 ear 15 sin 13
ati 31 all 19 ess 17 ine 15 tor 13
ter 26 int 19 thi 16 age 15 ore 13
ate 24 men 19 rea 16 his 14 lin 13From a Project Gutenberg source, I found some 4-gram information. Unfortunately I can not find the page.
Most common 4-gram
that ## this 36
ther 79 thin 36
with 75 they 34
tion 72 atio 34
here 49 ever 34
ould 49 from 34
ight 41 ough 33
have 38 were 30
hich 37 hing 30
whic 37 ment 29Googles corpus did not include punctuation. MTGAP's provides a decent Letter Frequency Analysis (if only for the punctuation). From there I got:
Character Frequency:
SPC e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w ENT b , . v k - " _ ' x ) (
; 0 j 1 q = 2 : z / * ! ? $ 3 5 > { } 4 9 [ ] 8 6 7 \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~
Letter Frequency:
e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w b v k x j q z
Punctuation Frequency:
, . - " _ ' ) ( ; = : / * ! ? $ > { } [ ] \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~
Number Frequency:
0 1 2 3 5 4 9 8 6 7
Other things that were useful
A chart like the 'relative frequency' chart, but with both the digraph and it's reverse added together (useful for reducing SFU & Hurdling)
An excel spreadsheet that allowed me to visually see how the digraphs were related to each letter on the same hand.
Andong's Layout Tester
Patorjk's Keyboard layout analyzer (not as useful as Andong's)
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Hang on - do you use word lists as syllabi? I wouldn't do that, because in real-life typing some words are used a lot and some not at all?
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So you've never been weaned.
Oh well I use alt+tab all the time to flip between windows, I mean all the time, using my thumb on alt, and I'd rather the alt key to the right a little.
You might think there isn't much difference between that and the tilde's position, but there really is, as it involves a stretch, at least with my little left pinky.
Hate is a strong word, but was trying to voice my contempt. I think placing it up there might well be a _grave_ mistake. As I said it holds a different spot on the Apple keyboards and is far more accessible from what I remember.
Last edited by pinkyache (15-Nov-2012 08:59:48)
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DreymaR said:
Hang on - do you use word lists as syllabi? I wouldn't do that, because in real-life typing some words are used a lot and some not at all?
Yes I do (indirectly), but it's not a problem. Frequency of words is accounted for. I don't actually use the word list. Instead, I use a frequency analysis of the word list.
Googles word list includes not only the word, but also the number of times that word has been used.
Lets Look at two words: 'the' & 'qdo'
Bad analysis
the
-th: 1
-he: 1
qdo
-qd: 1
-do: 1
As you said, this is a terrible idea. QD is no where near as common as TH. This is taken into consideration, because the's 'TH' count will be multiplied by the number of times 'THE' appears.
the 23,135,851,162
qdo 14,738
Repeat this for the other 13.6 million unique 'words', and the frequency analysis becomes very accurate... The relative frequency of 'TH' is 99. The relative frequency of 'QD' is 0.
Unfortunately:
This analysis does include 'words' that are misspelled or gibberish. However, this shouldn't be a problem due the the frequency that real words appear in comparison to google 'words'.
This analysis (probably) includes text that was generated by machine. I have no clue if this will be statistically significant or not.
(Google's definition of 'word': a group of letters that appears over 200 times.).
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Ooo. Thanks for that explanation then. :)
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pinkyache said:
Oh well I use alt+tab all the time to flip between windows, I mean all the time, using my thumb on alt, and I'd rather the alt key to the right a little.
You might think there isn't much difference between that and the tilde's position, but there really is, as it involves a stretch, at least with my little left pinky.
Hate is a strong word, but was trying to voice my contempt. I think placing it up there might well be a _grave_ mistake. As I said it holds a different spot on the Apple keyboards and is far more accessible from what I remember.
The `~ key is on the same spot on PCs and Macs. On a Mac, the alt and command (windows) key are switched.
I do not understand why you use your pinky to hit the tilde key. For me this involves uncomfortably twisting my wrist and flaring my elbow so my pinky can reach. For me it is much more comfortable to use any finger except the pinky.
You say the alt key would be more comfortable if it was to the right a little, using a finger further to the right does a similar thing (Your hand must move further left to reach the ~. This makes the alt key relatively further to the right (with respect to the palm)).
Last edited by Loonster (16-Nov-2012 08:12:02)
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@loonster, my Apple keyboard has the tilde and grave key to the left of the Z. Perhaps at some point Apple moved it. Or it's a UK keyboard layout thing. Perhaps it changes positions between regions, and between laptops and desktops. I quite like it down the bottom.
On my UK thinkpad, the tilde and grave do not share the same key. The tilde is near the return key.
See the subtle changes between layouts here (and that's only the tip of the iceberg.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_a … _keyboards
My tilde under Dvorak is in the same place as it is under Qwerty for my UK keyboards. But there's also a UK Dvorak variant which places some of the punctuation where it's printed on the UK keyboard. So my OS knows I have a UK keyboard, and as such I get a different Dvorak.
You just get used to the differences over time. Dvorak layout on the console is different for me, than in the terminal or on the Desktop. I think it's slightly different again under Windows. It's a little irritating but you get used to it, like switching between Apple's and PC keyboards.
The placement for me under the Apple keyboard is good. (Edit: actually I just dusted the thing off, and now I remember it took some getting used to. I much prefer the placement though of the command key - and I do think it would help if the alt was edged to the right.) Thumbing the command key and pressing the grave key at the same time was really (edit: not that ) comfortable and really easy, and I used it all the time to switch between say multiple instances of Firefox. So it annoys me on a PC with Gnome 3.
(Edit: I guess I've become delusional. I probably just got used to it.)
So in short I never ever go up there to the left corner and I wouldn't want to; but if I did I'd use the left pinky. I don't like doing Alt+` but if I have to, I use the thumb on alt and the left pinky.
Which finger do you use for the backspace then? Isn't the right finger to use the pinky? I don't always use it though- to spare it the trouble. Using another finger requires greater hand movement. It's doubly silly being up there on the top right, over a river of punctuation. That's why the Colemakians like their caps-lock backspace.
My two pence...
Last edited by pinkyache (16-Nov-2012 18:12:10)
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Maybe the tilde key is a mac-UK thing, or maybe an old-mac thing. I only know that my modern usa mac, has the tilde key in the same place as the PCs I use.
I fumbled over my words. I understand why you use your pinky to hit tilde key, but I do not understand why you use your pink to hit tilde when holding alt.
To me, each hotkey lives in its own little world, each with its own finger combination to use. I do not use the 'right' finger to press the XCV keys when holding down control/command. Why would I use the 'right' finger if using Alt+tab/tilde? To me, the correct finger is whichever finger is most comfortable to use at the time.
I used to do a similar thing with hard refresh on PCs (ctrl+F5). I used to use only my left hand (after all, F5 is on the left side of the keyboard). I didn't stop until I started to feel pain in my left arm. I now use both hands to hard refresh (well I try to, habits are hard to break. I sometimes relapse into using only my left hand).
To hit the backspace key, I use whichever finger is floating over it when I move my wrist. Sometimes it is the pinky, sometimes it is the ring finger, and rarely it is the middle finger (if I'm using arrow keys or numpad). I'm not sure why I switch fingers... It may depend on what I previously typed and the hand position my fingers were in, or it may depend on how many times I need to hit the backspace key. Now that I am thinking about it, I can not replicate what I normally would do.
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>I understand why you use your pinky to hit tilde key, but I do not >understand why you use your pink to hit tilde when holding alt.
Otherwise my hand will look like a windscreen wiper. ;)
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