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    Is it possible to like dvorak more than colemak?

    • Started by bmende
    • 15 Replies:
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    • Registered: 22-Oct-2012
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    Hi, so a little while ago i switched from qwerty to dvorak in my quest to find the best layout.

    I got to 50 wpm on dvorak in 5 , during that tine i did 700 races on typeracer.

    After all that i did a little research and found out i was wrong, and that dvorak was not the best, although besides the 'f' and the 'l' keys, i liked it a lot.

    I learned from looking at the carpalx studies that most likely the best 'real' layout (q*mlw* doesnt count for real for me ha) is colemak.

    So, switching again after all that work was a pretty traumatic experience, but i decided to do it anyways, but this time i decided to take more time


    After 2 days i have a 8 wpm with colemak, and yeah , by now im very confused ( like my mind feels so boggled with the keys after all the switching) and i actually seem to like dvorak better than colemak which im typing right now,

    I dont know if this is just because of the my traumatic experience of all the layout switching, or possibly ive just been typing or something (btw, before all this i typed over 5k races on typeracer in about 6 weeks).

    My arms staring to hurt now so i might type less, but do i really actually like dvorak more or is it just an illusion?


    For me i feel as if in a dvorak vs colemak competition colemak simply dominates because it seems that dvorak was just something created when there was not that great statistics and studies available like today

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    You just have to get used to Colemak. Give it a couple of months. I, just like you, switched from Dvorak to Colemak and in the beginning had similar thoughts crossing my mind. The way Colemak feels is much different than Dvorak – in a way it "feels" closer to Qwerty, for me at least. The biggest difference in how it feels is the fact that with Dvorak you've got more hand alternation, whereas with Colemak your fingers roll consecutive keys more often on the same side. It could be good and bad, depending on what you like and prefer. But you can get used to either.

    And yes, Colemak was built with the use of computers, unlike Dvorak, but that's not the only reason why many consider it better. Just look at the Carpalx' site and you can see.

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    According to Carpalx numbers, Colemak is 3-5% better than Dvorak. But switching from Dvorak to Colemak is not very much encouraged, since the improvement is quite small and you have to go through hell again.

    But since paftaka90, Dreymar and many others have done so, I think that would be beneficial to you in the long term.

    So go all the way and don't come back! The positive side of this is that you know that this hellish experience will be over in a month or two.

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    • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
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    The layout you already know will have a natural advantage over the newcomer.

    Don't put all your faith in CarpalX's metrics.  Without the scientific justification behind Colemak's design, I can't take it any more seriously than Dvorak.  About the best you have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

    If I was to pick up another layout tomorrow, I would be very resistant to change, after the investment in effort. 

    It would be interesting to hear from the Dvorak->Colemak converts, just what swung it for them.

    Last edited by pinkyache (10-Aug-2016 04:37:31)

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    True, the improvement is so small that you cannot justify it when comparing to the investment you've done to switch. So most Dvorak users are advised to stay with Dvorak, and Qwerty users are advised to go straight to Colemak, to save time and effort.

    Since Colemak got 10 common keys with Qwerty (QWAHZXCVBM) while Dvorak got only two common keys (AM), the switching process from Qwerty to Colemak will be shorter and easier.

    After switching to Dvorak, Colemak or other optimized Carpalx layouts, you're done with the keyboard layouts. The optimizations can continue but the difference between those optimized keyboard layouts are so tiny that switching between them is unnecessary.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (24-Oct-2012 05:31:53)
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    Tony_VN said:

    True, the improvement is so small that you cannot justify it when comparing to the investment you've done to switch. So most Dvorak users are advised to stay with Dvorak, and Qwerty users are advised to go straight to Colemak, to save time and effort...........
    .........After switching to Dvorak, Colemak or other optimized Carpalx layouts, you're done with the keyboard layouts. The optimizations can continue but the difference between those optimized keyboard layouts are so tiny that switching between them is unnecessary.

    I guess this really says it all. Do the best upfront, but perhaps changing later serves no purpose. Regardless of which one you choose, the result is effectively the same. And....that's what it's all about.

    And the comments about no science behind CarpalX...I needed to hear that.

    I can see some of the CarpalX layouts...the big 3, the couple optimized Colemaks,...even the numbers on CarpalX don't reflect much of a difference. I'm thinking that particular more/less common movements might actually be of more significance than the 'typing effort/typing distance' at that marginal point. And, I think it will be very personal because some people type huge amounts of text or type extremely fast, verses much more moderate typing requirements. And comfort.

    An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I'm one swinger as mentioned.
    • The transition felt a bit tricky, and I think it would've been easier to come from QWERTY directly (using Tarmak maybe?!?). On the other hand, I already had some layout switching experience from Dvorak which helped the next switch.
    • I don't think that the Dvorak->Colemak transition had a major impact on my speed or comfort (yes, my speed is higher with Colemak than it was with Dvorak but that's possibly because of training rather than just layout differences).
    • It did have a major impact on my hotkey use which I'm happy about (particularly devastating was Dvorak's placement of the Ctrl-V for pasting next to the Ctrl-W for closing the window instead of pasting...).
    • I'm also happy that it's easier to move back and forth between QWERTY (which I often have to use at work machines and suchlike) and Colemak.
    • I'm pleased to see some awkward digraphs like 'ls' getting better; all those problems listed in the FAQ basically.
    • I happen to just like the feel of Colemak! It's a thing of beauty. But that's my personal opinion/experience.

    Last edited by DreymaR (24-Oct-2012 09:00:58)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Swingers!  Be nice if that stuck.

    @input_nirvana,
    I wasn't bashing the science of CarpalX, far from it.  The site is pretty explicit.  Great to see someone doing  layout analysis and documenting it so well.

    Actually it was more a poke at Colemak (and other layouts,) in that their designs can feel rather opaque.

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    • From: California Coastal Living!
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    @pinkyache,
    Perhaps I blew my post again. Yes, of course the CarpalX site has more info than you can consume at once or shake a stick at....lotta detail there.
    No, there is not the 'science' explanation of Colemaks design/rationial on CarpalX. But I found it interesting about the 2 'improved Colemak' layouts.

    @Tony_VN,
    I'm on board with you about layouts...there cannot be a perfect layout. What is perfect? We have several major measuring ideas/method to have improved the existing 'standard' but there is no one clear answer...so it's rather a moot issue in many ways and probably doesn't matter or warrant the excessive amount of time spent agonizing over the decision.

    I could for metrics sake, switch from Colemak (1.842) to QGWMLB (1.668) with those relative effort measurements, the difference is slight, but notable. But the real question on these layout comes down to the letter combinations XX-graphs and if there is basically a trade-off or is one notably improved over the other?

    An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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    @input_nirvana: True, there is no perfect layout, but perfectionists will continue to compare such layouts endlessly. Hopefully they are using Colemak/QGWMLB while typing such long texts of comparison.

    One Colemak advantage is that Colemak has 10 common keys with Qwerty, while other Carpalx layouts have less common keys.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (28-Oct-2012 07:13:39)
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    Tony_VN said:

    @input_nirvana: True, there is no perfect layout, but perfectionists will continue to compare such layouts endlessly. Hopefully they are using Colemak/QGWMLB while typing such long texts of comparison.

    LOL!!!

    Tony_VN said:

    One Colemak advantage is that Colemak has 10 common keys with Qwerty, while other Carpalx layouts have less common keys.

    You and others mention that...for me it doesn't seem like that big of an issue, though I know it really is. I was not a very proficient typist before Colemak. I tried but I was always uncomfortable and made it my last thing to do. Honestly, Kinesis AND Colemak changed that for me. Colemak is a a big factor in making typing easier/more comfortable for me.

    Most people are typing for their profession and making such a change is drastic. For me, not so much.

    An Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkey From Hell typing with Colemak saved my life!

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    Personally I think typists are always willing to change layouts than normal hunt and peck people. They have endured the touch typing lessons and experience its benefits to their work and their professional image.

    I count learning touch typing as a switching layout experience from hunt and peck layout to touchtyping layout. So another switch to Colemak/Dvorak/Carpalx optimized layouts are fine to them. They know what to do and what to expect. They are more patient and their fingers (especially ring fingers and pinkies) are already strong enough to meet the tough switching challenge.

    Good luck to the thread starter. You will feel better about day 20, where Colemak starts to feel better on your fingers.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (30-Oct-2012 05:26:08)
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    It doesn't matter much that Colemak is easier to learn because of more common keys - once you've learnt it. What matters more to me every day is that when I have to type on people's QWERTY keyboards I won't have to type with a lot of keys strangely placed (31 for Dvorak vs QWERTY) but only about half as many (17 for Colemak vs QWERTY - additionally, only two keys change hands). That effect is very real to me at least!

    Last edited by DreymaR (30-Oct-2012 11:03:37)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    And to add to what DreymaR said, the fact that only two keys change sides (hands) is great for shortcuts in different programs, especially so if you just go with the defaults.

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    I think it is possible to like dvorak more than colemak.
    Maybe its me but I kinda like the hand alternating action. I've used Colemak both at work and home for a about week and I couldn't get comfortable with the layout. Maybe its because I spent more time learning to touch type on dvorak and I never learned to touch-type before that.
    I was able to type pretty good on QWERTY with my own style. While looking for an ergonomic keyboard I came upon the dvorak layout and the more I read about it I decided wanted to go for a better layout and learn to properly touchtype.
    I came across one of those one of those sites that tells you which layout would be best for the text you entered...
    For programming code I entered it showed programmer dvorak and the second one was simplified dvorak.. Most of the other texts showed Colemak.. I've just been now going through layouts for a while in my mind.
    I actually found this article online... http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_vs_colemak.html
    He actually has some really good points...

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    Hi knightjp. Yes, these were pretty much my thoughts right after I switched from Dvorak to Colemak. I liked the alternation a lot and felt a little awkward having to coordinate my fingers better. Hand alternation is good. If you read my experience thread you'll see that I thought that for pure text typing I liked Dvorak better than Colemak. But nowadays we (or at least I) do much more than only pure text typing, and in most of those cases Dvorak was miles behind Colemak in efficiency. And after just a little while that initial "awkwardness" is gone.

    Btw I briefly saw the article, out of curiosity, and didn't really see any valuable points?

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