• You are not logged in.
  • Index
  • General
  • What's wrong with the Colemak layout?

    What's wrong with the Colemak layout?

    • Started by vjustin
    • 13 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75

    Edit (Sun Jan  6 07:30:20 CST 2013): I am currently using Colemak and satisfied by it. What I thought were big defects of Colemak turned out to be mere small trivial imperfections that are negligible and meaningless, specially when you compare them to the actual problems other layouts have. I think probably a mathematician could be able to mathematically prove that Colemak is the optimal, or very close to the optimal, solution to improving the typing experience while having some niceties like mantaining zxcv in place, among others.

    (Of course all this applies only to English, it might be that Colemak is actually very adecuate for typing other languages like Norwegian or other languages)

    The Colemak layout "is designed for efficient and ergonomic touch typing in English.
    Learning Colemak is a one-time investment that will allow you to enjoy faster and pain-free typing for the rest of your life"
    It is also quick to learn it, but....
    Is it also quick and easy to become profficient and productive in Colemak?

    If the following hypotheses turn out to be true, then they might mean it is hard to become profficient and productive in Colemak, not impossible maybe, but quite expensive in time and effort:

    1. Humans would have a tendency to rest their fingers on the keys of the home row when the most frecuent letters in english are in that row, as in the Colemak layout.
    If this is true then it would mean that when users use Colemak they unconsciously rest their fingers on the home row and then they'd need to stretch to reach for the two central columns, and if frecuently used letters are also in those positions then that could cause strain to the hands on the long term.
    Users could float their hands pianist-like but that would require a conscious effort.
    (It would be more natural for pianists when playing, and qwerty users when typing, to float their hands because, pianists are half expecting a musical scale to appear anytime and are prepared for it, and qwerty users would naturally float their hands because qwerty doesn't have the most popular letters on the home row and so hands have more movement and users would unconsciously and naturally would float their hands.)

    2. If two keys that are 1 or 2 positions away one of the other horizontally on the old layout (which the user already masters) appear in new positions on the new layout but are now in inverse order along the horizontal axis and on the same row (example S is to the left of R in qwerty and it is now to the right of R in Colemak) then that would cause the user to tend to confuse the two keys. (until the motor memory of the old layout is overcome)

    What do you think? Are they true, false, or are actual measurements with people necessar

    Last edited by vjustin (06-Jan-2013 14:41:09)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    1) You're saying that the heavy use of the home position might make people's hands freeze up there? I don't believe that. Not at all. Both when typing and when playing the piano my fingers will sometimes touch the keys and sometimes float depending on what they're about to do. There's no freezing effect from heavy home position usage.

    Also, your alternative would be what? Using the home position for less frequent letters? That's unproductive, I'm quite certain of that!

    2) It's an interesting thought. The S-R thing is certainly a problem for new colemakers (but Shai has assured us that he only made this choice after serious consideration of alternatives; his earlier layout attempts did have the S still in its QWERTY position but he abandoned that eventually because it didn't work for him). That one's mainly problematic because the S key moves one step right from its previous position on the home row, I believe though. Not sure about your hypothesis. I of course, have learnt Colemak to the point where I can't assess these difficulties based on my own experiences anymore.

    On a side note: Most of my typing errors are transpositions it seems, switching the sequence of two letters.

    On another side note: Colemak is best for English it seems. It's not bad for a number of other languages though, at least considering single-letter frequencies. We had a topic on this a way back.

    Last edited by DreymaR (21-Dec-2012 15:24:08)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75
    DreymaR said:

    You're saying that the heavy use of the home position might make people's hands freeze up there? I don't believe that. Not at all.

    Well it seems to be true in my case. But the only valid way to find out who's right would be to do scientific measurements, or prove it somehow scientifically.

    DreymaR said:

    Also, your alternative would be what? Using the home position for less frequent letters?

    No, the Workman solution is one good solution: placing less frecuently occurring letters on the two center columns. Or also the Capewell solution: If a key in one of the centre columns is used, have the keys typed before and after the key be typed by the other hand    E.g.: THE
    (IMHO those two approaches are genious)

    DreymaR said:

    1)The S-R thing is certainly a problem for new colemakers

    Which translates into lost productivity in a world where time is money and the opportunities won't wait for you to spend years to become productive in Colemak.

    Last edited by vjustin (21-Dec-2012 17:19:35)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    Again with your "years". Please stop this, you're embarrassing yourself. Nobody I've heard of while trolling these forums since 2007 ever used more than a couple of months to get used to this. After a year I had more speed with Colemak than I had ever had with QWERTY or Dvorak, even if my transition was from Dvorak which isn't optimal. Many colemakers have reported a much faster progression and few have been slower than me from what I've heard (I'm somewhat deliberate I think).

    Can we go back to talking about real observations now? ;) For instance, it's interesting that you feel a freeze-up effect and I don't/didn't. People are different, and it's interesting to note what's good for them. This guy with short index fingers a while back for instance, really had trouble with the G and J positions and I quite understand that from his perspective.

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Dec-2012 15:36:02)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75
    DreymaR said:

    Can we go back to talking about real observations now? ;) For instance, it's interesting that you feel a freeze-up effect and I don't/didn't. People are different, and it's interesting to note what's good for them. This guy with short index fingers a while back for instance, really had trouble with the G and J positions and I quite understand that from his perspective.

    Ts
    If you place the fingers of your right hand resting softly on their home row positions, can you extend your index to press H or Y ( H and J in colemak) without lifting your other fingers? What do you say about that?

    Also, could it be maybe that the people that have difficulties with  G and J (T and Y in qwerty) is because they try to follow the the home row method too strictly?

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 1
    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    You don't need to glue your fingers to the home keys. Many people just move the whole palm.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 7
    • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
    • Posts: 818

    To me, this sounds as if you are placing your hands in a fixed position - I'll take a bet that you are resting your palms.  You'll notice the stretches more that way.

    I'm pretty homed into to my homerow (I'm a floater), but I don't really mind the middle column 'that much.'  Apart from Qwerty's B.  Which is X under Dvorak, so I rarely need it.  I do wonder if those middle column letters can effect the entire dance of the hand, but that's another topic.

    Last edited by pinkyache (23-Dec-2012 00:30:09)

    --
    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75
    pafkata90 said:

    You don't need to glue your fingers to the home keys. Many people just move the whole palm.

    Then moving the whole palm to type seems to be the proper way to type in Colemak.

    pinkyache said:

    To me, this sounds as if you are placing your hands in a fixed position - I'll take a bet that you are resting your palms.  You'll notice the stretches more that way.

    I only rest the fingertips on the home row, but I am trying to float more.

    What about ergonomic mods? Are those maybe the best way to really be able to use Colemak well? (I am using now one I've just come up with:)

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    It's not one or the other. I rest my palms a little, and my fingers a little, but neither are fixed in place either. I wouldn't keep the other fingers stuck at their home positions to reach the D and H, no. To reach G and J the hands may move a little but not to reach P and L for instance.

    This makes me think of another thing: To become really proficient it's necessary to master alternative fingering at some point. My hand slides in to type NK with the middle and index fingers for instance, to avoid the dreaded same-finger digraph. Very handy, but takes a flexible position. Incidentally, that's what the typing masters like Sean Wrona do too if I understand them right; only a lot more and better than I do obviously.

    Last edited by DreymaR (23-Dec-2012 01:12:03)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75

    @Dreymar: interesting, but what about the ANGLE/WIDE KEYBOARD MODEL MODS you mention in:https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1438
    Do you actually use that? or what do you use and why?

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
    • Posts: 75

    I tried my best to make a handcrafted layout that could defeat colemak .... results: It suffered from the very same problems I mentioned about colemak on the first post of this thread.... now I will need to see if a layout generated by the computer can win, but that won't be any easy.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    Yes, I use the Angle/Wide mod "AWide-Slash" (aka "AWide-35").

    The Angle part is almost a no-brainer as it allows the left hand to keep a straight wrist without changing the fingering on ZXCV, and makes B easier to reach. You will of course need a 102/105-key (ISO) keyboard for it.

    The Wide mod is more optional, but it does put some load off the right-hand pinky, widen the arm distance (useful for small keyboards in particular, but nice regardless), and make the access to AltGr/Enter/Backspace/RShift easier. (I use two Backspace keys: The old one is easier to hit due to the Wide mod, but the one I use the most is Caps+O from my Extend mappings.)

    I added most of this answer to my Big Bag topic so it's easier for others to see why I use these mods.

    Last edited by DreymaR (02-Jan-2013 11:54:20)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 4
    • Registered: 08-Dec-2010
    • Posts: 656

    From the ideal view, I think any layout would be wrong anyway, like the world and the people around us.

    Our endless quest for perfection means we feel imperfect inside. Since we cannot forget the inferiority we feel, we whole-heartedly impose/enforce our desire to be perfect to things and people outside us.

    There's no perfect layout and we will never end our quest for the 100% perfection while forgetting to do the 99.563% good thing.

    Most people simply shrug and continue to use Qwerty even when they understand that Qwerty is far from perfect.

    We should shrug and continue to use Colemak/Dvorak even when we understand that Colemak/Dvorak is 0.437% from perfect.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 1
    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    Even though I've taken my decision to stick with Colemak, I wouldn't stop encouraging anyone to strive for perfection, simply because I'm the same.

    I just think that the benefits from the new, slightly better layout than Colemak, won't be enough to compensate for the lost time in researching/designing, learning and getting to my current Colemak level. But that's me. People value all these things differently. For example the benefits (for me) of Colemak over Dvorak did make me switch, so if anyone sees seeking for even 0.05% better layout, then go for it, I say!

    Offline
    • 0
      • Index
      • General
      • What's wrong with the Colemak layout?