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    Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    • Started by Paul Somebody
    • 13 Replies:
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    • Registered: 09-Dec-2012
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    22-Dec-2012 04:43:10#1 Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    I have read an interesting and thought-provoking story published in Reason Magazine some years ago in 1996.

    https://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors

    The authors claim to have examined the research that purpoted to demonstrate the superiority of Dvorak over QWERTY and have found it either to be fabricated by August Dvorak himself, to be biased or othervise inconclusive.

    Aside from the philosophical and economic question the story touched upon—whether the market is the test of truth and beauty, that I do not wish to discuss there, there an appied and important question—do alternative keyboard layouts, such as Dvorak and Colemak lead to better typing speeds and more comfort? Can this this increase be objectively measured or quantified? Is there conclusive scientific evidence that supports these claims?

    I would like to hear an input from the experienced typists, who are familiar with layouts mentioned above.

    Last edited by Paul Somebody (22-Dec-2012 07:04:30)
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    22-Dec-2012 04:57:39#2 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Dvorak is 33% better than Qwerty, according to Carpalx statistics.
    http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?dvorak

    Colemak is a bit better than Dvorak, according to Carpalx statistics.
    http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak

    My fastest typing records http://hi-games.net/profile/4314
    My switching experience https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970

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    22-Dec-2012 05:04:04#3 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Yes, I am familiar with that claim. However, that in turn raises a question—whether Carpalx statistics are any good, e.g. objective.

    Can you help me find an answer to that question?

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    22-Dec-2012 05:10:17#4 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Right now Carpalx statistics is the most objective statistics on keyboard layouts.

    Most people argue about its objectiveness, but no one is able to make such a detailed statistical website like that.

    My fastest typing records http://hi-games.net/profile/4314
    My switching experience https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970

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    22-Dec-2012 05:18:00#5 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Okay, that is a good point.

    However, if their statistics are the standard of objectivity for the moment, does it not follow from here that the keyboard layouts they propose, for example QFMLWY, are better than Colemak?

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    22-Dec-2012 05:40:50#6 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Yes.

    My fastest typing records http://hi-games.net/profile/4314
    My switching experience https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970

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    22-Dec-2012 05:58:01#7 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Hmm. Are there good reasons why one who have not invested much time in perfecting Colemak yet may wish to continue using it, then? Aside from the better compatibility with QWERTY and some hotkeys remaining in place.

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    22-Dec-2012 06:08:39#8 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Who cares? Most people continue to use Qwerty after knowing that Qwerty is not optimal, so effectiveness is only a minor factor.

    After switching to Dvorak, Colemak or other optimized Carpalx layouts, you're done with the keyboard layouts. The optimizations can continue but the difference between those optimized keyboard layouts are so tiny that switching between them is unnecessary.

    My fastest typing records http://hi-games.net/profile/4314
    My switching experience https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970

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    22-Dec-2012 06:35:02#9 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    I think rational people should care. However, your point about diminishing marginal returns in constant switching to yet better keyboard layouts is quite precise—I checked the Carpalx data and while there is no data about how QFMLWY compares to Colemak, judging from other points, the increase in efficiency must be even smaller than increase of Colemak over Dvorak, yet at the same time Colemak is quite easy to learn and maintains a large degree of compatibility with QWERTY.

    Last edited by Paul Somebody (22-Dec-2012 06:35:45)
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    22-Dec-2012 06:44:50#10 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    And Colemak has its own forum with friendly, helpful, enthusiastic community. Dvorak, though older, and Carpalx layouts do not.

    Where you can share your switching experiences, ask for helpful advice and get much needed encouragement when you need them most.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (22-Dec-2012 06:47:08)

    My fastest typing records http://hi-games.net/profile/4314
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    22-Dec-2012 06:48:32#11 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    I have got the hint, thank you for the patience and participation. ;)

    P.S. I have marked the thread as solved, but then seeing as this marking is not part ot the forum's standard rules, I have removed it.

    Last edited by Paul Somebody (22-Dec-2012 07:08:34)
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    22-Dec-2012 11:38:28#12 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    To me, availability is a primary concern.  Dvorak easily wins here, although lately Colemak seems to have picked up strongly over the years.  Unfortunately, the native support for the CarpalX layouts is seriously lacking.  Because it seems primarily like a research project instead of a serious opponent to the other layouts, I can't imagine that changing any time soon.  The variety of similar layouts, completely unmemorable names for the layouts, the focus on using the program to generate custom layouts, and other things will probably keep it this way, which is sad, because it would be nice if--for example--the various free and open source UNIX-like operating systems would include it by default.

    Apparently the Workman layout is making its way into X.org, which is nice... I'm just not interested in the layout.  I would much rather see both the partial and fully optimized CarpalX layouts, but the creator just doesn't seem to be positioning them for operating system developers to pick up and support the layouts.  Really, it's almost as if he is suggesting that everyone runs the program and generates a personalized layout for themselves, or at least that's the impression I get from the website.

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    22-Dec-2012 13:30:06#13 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    @Paul, I wouldn't just put this thread to bed.  I think you bring up a very important topic.

    It's not the first time that Dvorak has been criticised.  You'd have thought (or at least hoped) that unbiased scientific studies might have been carried out for the layout.  I fear that without financial interest, there just isn't the incentive. 

    Measuring a layout is difficult.  Studies might even need to span years.  Adding other layouts to the equation just makes it even harder.

    CarpalX has some interesting metrics, but totally misses some of the human/ergo elements. IMHO.

    I also like that Dvorak has relatively good support across operating systems.  I'd rather see a cross platform portable format for any layout, rather than focusing on getting yet another layout into the distributions.

    Something like the following would be nice:

    $ wget https://example.com/customlayout.lyt | loadkeys
    Last edited by pinkyache (23-Dec-2012 00:59:26)

    --
    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    22-Dec-2012 14:52:24#14 Re: Is the story of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY a hoax?

    Tony is always of big and strong words. No, it is in no way certain that CarpalX's model is superior to anything. It's obviously got a lot of thought behind it but that alone doesn't prove anything. Such proof needs consist of costly experiments that none of us are able to conduct, and even those might go astray if not designed with the utmost care.

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