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    Will there ever be a layout that is better than Colemak?

    • Started by vjustin
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    • Registered: 16-Dec-2012
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    1. Do you think there will ever be a layout that is better than Colemak and Dvorak?
    2. Why?
    3. If yes, what challenges would this new layout face to gain adoption? (Dvorak was not able to displace Qwerty)

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
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    How good a layout is is very subjective. There are multiple factors to be taken into account, whose importance is different for everybody. So ultimately a layout, better than Colemak or Dvorak, would be a layout which performs better in each of these factors.

    Now if you pick Colemak for example and try to improve any of the factors in play, you'll reduce another. So in other words I don't think there will ever be a layout that is ultimately better than Colemak (or Dvorak). Which also doesn't make either of them the best for everybody.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (29-Dec-2012 17:05:41)
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    You are right, maybe the only way to produce a layout better than Colemak is not to try to improve the design factors of Colemak but  use a different set of design philosophies (or factors, or metrics, or whatever they are called...) that targets users with specific needs (for example I don't see the need in my case, to optimize to use the strong fingers more than the weaker ones, also I like more hand alternation, like in Dvorak....)

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    I personally agree with you about the finger load. There are quite a few layouts out there and if everyone makes a decent research I think most of people's requirements should be met by one of them. For the more enthusiastic people, there's always the harder way – of optimizing or designing their own layout. Though if that's first contact with alternative layouts I'd recommend try one (or even two) of the established ones for a few months first.

    If I were to make a new layout for myself I'd probably try and make a design with the lowest same finger ratio possible while considering alternative fingering for some key combinations. Colemak is very good at lowering the same finger ratio and alternative fingering is not very often needed. But if it's included in the design factors maybe someone could come up with more advanced layout which requires specific finger movements for different digraphs to be optimal.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (30-Dec-2012 12:12:47)
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    pafkata90 said:

    If I were to make a new layout for myself I'd probably try and make a design with the lowest same finger ratio possible

    Yes, that's what I'd do too.

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    Ideally with every person of different finger lengths and different hand physiology, there will be an optimized layout for each individual.

    I am sure that there will be another layout which is 0.1-0.2% better than Colemak in every aspects you guys mentioned, but it may take several months of computing powers to do the calculation and optimization, since Colemak is pretty optimized

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    I have no clue how "optimized" it really is, but I was playing around with the keyboard layout analyzer at http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ out of curiosity.  I started with the standard Dvorak layout, made a few changes, and somehow--according to the results--it managed to score higher than Colemak based on my custom text input.  But I'm not going to bet on it truly being accurate, and I was unable to get CarpalX working (Python dependency hell) for an alternate test.  What is shocking to me, though, is that of all the layouts I've entered into that thing (pretty much all of them I've come across), I have NEVER seen one beat Colemak.  Never.  It looks a bit worse than plain Dvorak when it comes to same-hand row jumping though, specifically on the right side, and it seemed to have lost some hand alteration in the process.

    Last edited by UltraZelda64 (31-Dec-2012 17:06:26)
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    As UltraZelda64 said we don't really know how optimized Colemak is. but it certainly beats all other existing layouts on many metrics.

    UltraZelda64 said:

    It looks a bit worse than plain Dvorak when it comes to same-hand row jumping though, specifically on the right side, and it seemed to have lost some hand alteration in the process.

    I totally agree with that.

    Tony_VN said:

    I am sure that there will be another layout which is 0.1-0.2% better than Colemak in every aspects you guys mentioned, but it may take several months of computing powers to do the calculation and optimization, since Colemak is pretty optimized

    That would be true only if you want to optimize for the same factors as Colemak...

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    Colemak is designed around the idea of altering QWERTY as minimally as possible. While they managed to do an amazing job of optimizing the layout, it is still QWERTY-based, so it has a couple of very minor shortcomings; i.e. the 'a' is on the pinky, 'r' is a home key instead of 'h', swapping 'a' and 'n' might increase hand alteration, and probably dozens of other things that are difficult to take into consideration without taking something else out of consideration.

    Ultimately, what you get out of any keyboard layout is entirely subjective.

    I use Colemak and enjoy it, but I wanted a layout that made more sense to my brain, so I've made my own:
    https://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/ … c8fff4.png

    But the biggest hindrance to any standard keyboard layout is the physical key layout itself. staggered keys are awful and make designing decent keyboard layouts unnecessarily complicated. Here are some alternative physical layouts:
    https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php
    http://ergodox.org/Default.aspx
    http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/#
    http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/

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    william said:

    dozens of other things that are difficult to take into consideration without taking something else out of consideration.

    william said:

    I use Colemak and enjoy it, but I wanted a layout that made more sense to my brain, so I've made my own:

    It's the same with me:

    Edit: Don't use this layout, it has some bad problems, like typing words like 'you' is very uncomfortable.

    h    l    d    w    b    k    y    u    m    
    n    r    s    t    g    p    e    a    i    o
    z    x    c    v    q    j    f    

           

    william said:

    dozens of other things that are difficult to take into consideration without taking something else out of consideration.

    True, it's a trade off. In my layout I sacrificed same finger use to place some less used letters on the center columns.

    the truly ergonomic looks awesome!!

    Last edited by vjustin (06-Jan-2013 14:54:25)
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    There seems to be a want to build a better layout.  I'll say it again: don't put all your faith in those layout analysers.  You do have to use a layout to get a feel for it.  I had teething pains with Dvorak, which were almost enough to put me off.  I'm sure I'd run into similar issues with other designs.  You'd have no idea if it was possible to ride the storm or not, without the support of others.

    And crikey, people can't even really come to a good conclusion as to whether Dvorak is even better than Qwerty - and even if it is a superior layout the practicalities of Qwerty might make it the better layout.

    It's a bit of a loaded question really.  I'll take a punt and say there is a better layout out there for a 'normal' computer keyboard.  As was said though on another thread, a layout will be designed for it's custom domain.   And outside of that domain it may well be useless, or bettered by something else.

    I personally think that you'd be more fruitful looking at physical modifications and things that were not available to the designer of a layout designed for a mechanical keyboard.  Like all the wonderful opportunities available with low priced computer power.  Would Dvorak have used predictive text if available, and if he had, would he have changed his layout?

    Getting back to the question of what challenges you'd be up against.   There are mulitple alternative layouts available.  Before introducing a new contender, what are the problems / limitations now?  How about trying to make it trivial to actually use a different layout on Foo operating system on Bar device?   People don't realise there are alternatives unless they have access to the options - and having options sometimes introduces the complexity of having an option.  At which point you need to make the decision process easy.

    Last edited by pinkyache (03-Jan-2013 15:50:02)

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    Predictive text sucks big time, unless you're predictable. I'm not, and spent more time correcting the correcting mistakes than I saved.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    @dreymar, I think that is unfair to say it sucks big time.  When it works it's great.  It just depends on the implementation.

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    I don't think so. I type English and Norwegian with a mélange of foreign words in the mix. I've yet to find a text correction system that's up to my standards, and I've come across quite a few. If you're a language person, I just don't think the predictive implementations are up to the challenge!

    I do realize that other people have such simple needs that they don't even use the AltGr key and only type in one language! For them I guess it's okay. For people like me who on occasion type words like 'Þröstur', 'Nhất' and 'κάκιστος' it's hopeless. ;)

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-Jan-2013 16:02:38)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    The insults fly!  Oh well, I'm a 'man' of simple needs and basic wants, and still struggle granted!

    Predictive text was just one example of a typing aid.

    (Wtih the word mélange wouldn't it be easier for me to type melange and for the OS to swap in the e acute?  Rather than fumbling around with modifier keys.)

    Last edited by pinkyache (03-Jan-2013 16:22:53)

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    Another data point: in my day job I work with hundreds of servers, all with "funny names", where prediction will not work either.  Some are existing English words and names, some just resemble existing words, and others have sequential numbers in them, etc.  I don't want to (and can't) pre-enter them all, as we have new ones every day.  Just entering those names character by character on a keyboard is reliable and predictable though.

    So I agree with DreymaR that prediction is not a solution.  It may be an optimization for many use cases, but when designing a new input method it should always be optional, and not an essential part of the solution.

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    Oh, I didn't intend to insult anyone! :o

    (With the word 'mélange', in English it should properly be written with the apostrophe but in Norwegian it isn't so it really depends on what you're doing. And language recognition is another weak point - if I write a single ß the stupid MS Word will believe firmly that I'm now writing in German for instance! Furthermore, if I were writing code in most instances I wouldn't want to use the apostrophe in case the compiler got a hiccup from it. So I still withhold that I want to be in charge and that in my experience the "helpers" cause more trouble to me than they solve.)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Back to the original question:

    Yes, there is room for a layout better than Colemak or Dvorak. I think efforts on alternative layouts which ignore arrow keys are solving only part of the problem. Computers are not typewriters, we don't "enter" text, we edit text. Arrow keys are high-frequency, they should be in good spots.

    For example (no claims to statistical significance), here is my usage data for, I think, a couple of hours of computing: some writing, some mail, some programming. (Letters are "what's printed on the keys", so the high-frequency "k" is really Colemak "e".)

    Keystroke Frequencies

    The top-10 keys are Backspace, space, enter, command (Mac Os, like alt on Windows), shift, downarrow, e, tab, uparrow, i.

    Of these, only 3 have decent spots; the rest are either conspiring to kill my wrists and pinkies out on the edges (backspace, enter, command, shift, tab), or focus on my wrists (arrows).

    Similar story for Xah Lee's Emacs Command List Frequency

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    debois said:

    Yes, there is room for a layout better than Colemak or Dvorak. I think efforts on alternative layouts which ignore arrow keys are solving only part of the problem. Computers are not typewriters, we don't "enter" text, we edit text. Arrow keys are high-frequency, they should be in good spots.

    Yes but IMO maybe that would be better  solved by new keyboard designs, like the truly ergonomic keyboard.

    >> Predictive text sucks big time, unless you're predictable
    that makes sense from a logic perspective.

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    Some of these keys have little to do with the layout. If you want comfortable positions for modifier keys, arrows Backspace or anything but a letter, I'd consider something like DreymaR's extended mapping. Or if you want something simple to start with, just think of a decent shortcut and map it to an awkward key you use often. I for example have Alt+NEIU (on Colemak) to send Ctrl+← ↓ → ↑, which is really good for jumping through words in a text and not only. I also have shortcuts for ctrl+backspace, which I use all the time and many others.

    As for the frequency of general use – it would be completely different from person to person, so it'd be hard to make a solution that suits everyone.

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