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Whoa...

  • Started by UltraZelda64
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  • From: Ohio, U.S.
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Just when I thought keyboard layouts were about as geeky as it gets, I find that there is an entire enthusiast industry of specialty keyboards with "real" key switches, complete with clicks and actual tactile feedback.  They tend to be up in the $100+ range, so they're not exactly cheap, but it does seem that many of these switches would be superior to the typical membrane/rubber dome keyboard.  Not only in feel and sound, but strain in the wrists, since they do not require bottoming out every keystroke to register a hit.  Sounds like a superior layout combined with good switches would go even further in terms of increasing comfort and ergonomics.

Unicomp's buckling spring-based keyboards seem to be a good "classic" choice at a relatively low price compared to most of what I've seen, as well as the Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate (I like the idea of the Cherry MX Blue switches).  WASD Keyboards allows total customization with one of several switch types, also providing pre-configured Dvorak and Colemak layouts, and apparently is getting prepared to release a new version with a hardware switch that will allow changing between QWERTY, Dvorak and Colemak.  Pretty cool!

Has anyone tried any of them for comparison?  I'd probably buy a Unicomp or Das right now if I could... but I'll have to settle with the cheap Chinese-made, Dell-branded, rubber dome model I have for a while longer...

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (08-Jan-2013 21:05:59)
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I use a Filco brown at work and a Choc mini blue mech keyboard at home.

For typing, blue is the best but it's noisy. Brown is the overall good option, since it's good enough for typing, but lighter and quieter than blue.

I also owns black, red, and buckling spring for comparison, but I like those blue and brown the most.

For more information, please read
http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mecha … oard-guide

Last edited by Tony_VN (09-Jan-2013 04:45:52)
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> Whoa!

When I first stumbled upon geekhack, and the Keyboard enthusiasts I had the same feeling.  But beware, getting a mechanical is like getting a tattoo.  You'll probably justify one, only later to find that you have a selection.  Twelve months down the line, you'll be reaching for some solder.

It's worth investing in a chair, keyboard and monitor.  I think they might save you from later problems.

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I have a Unicomp. It's nice, but these days it's not the only choice. I also have a treasure of a real-deal Model F(?) board from 1985 that's a dream to type on (but I'm not using it because I don't have a proper PS/2-to-USB converter).

Somewhat ironically, I still type most of the time on membrane boards. The laptop ones with chiclet keys aren't bad usually, but even the cheapo office boards don't give me shudders. For me, it's still more important with a good layout and Extend layer, not to mention good overall workplace ergonomy, than the switch technology.

Last edited by DreymaR (09-Jan-2013 10:43:21)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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I have tried two sessions 1hour each back to back with and without mechanical keyboard for comparison and found out that with a mechanical keyboard, I can add 10wpm to my speed.

How about you guys? (and gals :-)

Last edited by Tony_VN (09-Jan-2013 14:06:35)
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I have Golfer's and Tennis Elbow; bottoming out keys /hurt/. So I'm more or less forced to be on a mechanical keyboard (the switch engage way before the key bottoms out). But that's not so bad; I'm using Cherry MX Brown on the Kinesis Advantage, and it's /nice/.

It turns out that when I relax and take care to type real lightly, I'm way faster on mechanical switches even though it feels slower.

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Yeah... the "noisy" ones with tactile feedback (Buckling Springs, Cherry MX Blue...) seem like the ones I'd be most interested in.  The browns don't seem bad either from what I read, since they still produce feedback and require less force.  A keyboard with the Dvorak layout (Unicomp allows ordering with it) or completely blank keys (Das Keyboard) seem to be my most likely first choices.

I'm not so sure I see the point in the Cherry MX Black and Red... seems to me like a linear switch would be only slightly better that the typical membrane/rubber dome keyboard.  No doubt they would have their uses, though... maybe the weight of the Blacks would make them superior for learning a new layout, since more force required would probably translate to fewer mistakes/accidental key presses?  In that case, I still think the lack of tactile feedback would be its main drawback.

The Alps switches seem interesting too, but I wouldn't even know where to start with them.  There seems to be no reliable way to distinguish between them even by color (from what I read there seems to be no clear and consistent color coding), and there's less information in general.  Not to mention, they seem to be used more rarely in commercial keyboards.

It would be awesome to achieve more words per minute with mechanical key switches... it sounds hard to believe that it would be possible, but yet the affirmative sound and "kickback" of the keys, I would assume, would trigger the brain to immediately go for the next key with practice.  So it doesn't sound too far fetched.  My only problem is... I've only ever used cheap rubber domes, so I don't know how much training it would take to get used to the feel and not bottom out every (or every other) key.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (09-Jan-2013 23:39:08)
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Regarding mechanical switches, I've singled down my list to blues, reds or buckling springs.  I currently have a keyboard with black alps, but it requires I think a little too much actuation force and vertical striking (I've attained my best speed on it, but I don't enjoy typing that much on it.)

I think there is advantage with the red linears, as they are supposedly very light to the touch.  Wanting the click/feedback is another thing.  I used to have a rubber dome that required a very light touch, and I got very used to it before I started to touch type.  I've since found boards can stress my fingers, those that require harder actuation.

When practicing a lot on my mechanical with black alps, if I can use a light touch I can get a good speed on it (rapid gentle strokes).

Stiffer keys might favour those that like to hammer them.

I don't like the finish on the Das (too glossy).  I might get frowned upon, but the Cooler Master quick fire rapid look like a cheapish alternative to something like the Filco and Das.  I wish it had blank key caps rather than a crappy font, but hey you can't have it all.   If I lived in the states I'd grab an ergo kenesis (if I didn't mind having a maltron rip off), a unicomp, a truly ergonomic or a type matrix!   Or perhaps a small collection.

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 20:53:09)

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I can't argue with your "piano-black plastic" comment, honestly.  While I really like black electronics, I am no fan of the smudge-, smear-, and dust-magnet shiny finish that is unfortunately so common today, no thanks at all to Apple for this disgrace.  Drives me especially nuts on screens (and portable systems and devices)... I'm glad my monitor has a matte finish!  That said, occasionally I will take a quick break from typing and when I start back up again I will look down at the board for a second just to make sure my hands are both positioned correctly.  Occasionally I will subconsciously look at the letters printed on the next key or two, and unknowingly enter the QWERTY letter for the first key press... so a good keyboard with no markings sounds like it could have some real use.

Also, I still intend to give Colemak a try at some point and plan to use it as my secondary layout, and for the above-mentioned reason a blank keyboard would probably be the best bet (at least once I've got the basic layout down).  Especially if I intend to be switching between two layouts occasionally, I figure there would be some use in avoiding that confusion.  The only problem is, I would have to remember the symbols on the top row... because I never even tried to.  They're just too much of a pain to reach accurately (and I even have long fingers), so I don't even press them the proper touch-typing way... but I guess it's not too late to try to start.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (10-Jan-2013 06:12:27)
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debois said:

I have Golfer's and Tennis Elbow; bottoming out keys /hurt/. So I'm more or less forced to be on a mechanical keyboard (the switch engage way before the key bottoms out). But that's not so bad; I'm using Cherry MX Brown on the Kinesis Advantage, and it's /nice/.

It turns out that when I relax and take care to type real lightly, I'm way faster on mechanical switches even though it feels slower.

Do you bottom out the shift keys, or ctrl when doing ctrl-c ? I seem to bottom out all the time on these (also Kineses Adv.), frequently on the Space (where I have a lot of thumb pain and problems) and often on random letters. I think I type quite aggressively on the Kinesis just to be sure of registering the keystroke... I guess I should be focusing on taking it slow and easy and not bottoming out all the time?

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pinkyache said:

Having said that some people love hitting the keyboard

I believe that's how I got RSI.

pinkyache said:

Oh scrub that, actually I'd grab an ergo Kenesis

Kinesis ships anywhere, I think. I recently bought a Freeestyle for my wife, got it in 4 days (Europe). Otherwise, I bought my Advantage on amazon.co.uk. If I were to buy one today, I'd write Kinesis and ask if they could make me one with blue switches. By the way, the standard Kinesis Advantage can be programmed to make a tiny beep whenever a key activates. I use that; it really helps not bottoming out.

@innovine: I'm still working on not bottoming out the thumbs. It's really difficult. I don't have problems with thumbs, though, so I don't lose sleep over it. I've seen people complain on the internet that the Kinesis thumb keys are too high, straining your thumbs. Maltron should be better. Maybe get that, or a foot pedal to unload your thumbs?

I actually just ordered the 3-way pedal myself. I'll post a review later if anyone is interested?

Last edited by debois (10-Jan-2013 11:08:55)
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The Unicomp has remappable key caps. Your only concern is the index finger bumps. I didn't order Colemak ones but use the F in its remapped position and made the UNEI navigation block black which looks cool and lets me use a bumped blank key for the N position.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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debois said:

By the way, the standard Kinesis Advantage can be programmed to make a tiny beep whenever a key activates.

OMG, I had that disabled before I had typed 20 characters... cant stand it!

I'd be very curious to hear about the foot controller, please give a review when you've had a chance to test it.

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DreymaR said:

The Unicomp has remappable key caps. Your only concern is the index finger bumps. I didn't order Colemak ones but use the F in its remapped position and made the UNEI navigation block black which looks cool and lets me use a bumped blank key for the N position.

Yeah, true.  But they have Dvorak clearly listed as an option on their site, so it can't hurt to just order one specifically with all the keycaps--including bumps--in the right places.  Then there would be no need for ordering a couple of "U" and "H" keycaps with bumps after the fact and having to rearrange everything manually.  Something that--for the price--might as well just be done from the start.  But at first Dvorak is what I'll be getting.  By the time I've learned Colemak, who knows... I might be typing primarily on an unlabeled keyboard by then.

They also sell blank keyboards and sets of blank keycaps for order, which is tempting... but I'd prefer to go with a more "classic" look (ie. with key labels, although not exactly in the traditional QWERTY order).  Their site also mentions that you can special-order virtually any layout option you want... so it wouldn't surprise me if they would ship a ready-made Colemak keyboard complete with bumps on the "T" and "N" keys.  You'd probably just have to give them the Colemak site so they can get the layout correct, and who knows, with enough people ordering such a model they might officially begin listing Colemak as an option...

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (10-Jan-2013 18:09:00)
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debois said:

I actually just ordered the 3-way pedal myself. I'll post a review later if anyone is interested?

Yes, interested!  I wonder whether foot-hand coordination will be precise and quick enough for typing.

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They also have sets of just the bumped keys if I remember correctly. Didn't they sell bumped T and N too? Ask them - they're very cool people.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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It really depends on where you live. If you live in America you can get the Das keyboard for a very reasonable price. If you live in Europe you will have to pay much more for it due to the shipping fees. Therefore if you are in Europe it would be cheaper to buy a Cherry keyboard for example since they are made in Europe. You could probably get really cheap Filco's if you live in Asia. So where you live might greatly influence your BRAND choice. However most mechanical keyboard use the same kind of switches - Cherry MX switches. The most important thing is to select what switch you wan't and simply what you use your keyboard mainly for:

Typing (Noisy): Blue, also my favorite
Typing (Silent): Brown
Typing (Heavy touch): Clear
Gaming(Light touch): Red
Gaming(Heavy touch): Black

As for the Kinesis Advantage it is an amazing keyboard non the less, but you will find yourself handicapped (horrible feeling) when you sit on a normal ISO/ANSI keyboard.

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Yeah, I'm in the U.S., which is why the Unicomp and Das keyboards have gained my interest (mainly for their price and overall positive reviews).  I've looked at some Filcos, which look nice (and seem to come with most major switch types, which is cool), but they're harder to find and are more expensive than Das Keyboard on Amazon.  I do like the fact that they provide "tenkeyless" models and a nice looking standalone numeric keypad, though. (Goldtouch also sells a nice looking numpad).  As for the Cherry MX Clear switch you mentioned... I have yet to find an example of a keyboard that uses them, very little information on it, and next to no comments from other people... do any current production keyboards actually come with this switch?

That Kinesis... thing... looks way too bizarre to me and its price is way over what I would ever spend on a keyboard.  Seems like way too much of a gamble given its combination of price and extremely odd design.  I've tried some cheap "ergonomic" split keyboards and hated them... I can't imagine something like that being any different.  And it's hard to really gauge its size from the pictures I've seen, but it looks like that thing would leave no room for the mouse!  And it doesn't seem to have a numpad or even arrow keys...

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (11-Jan-2013 02:31:09)
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Another option is Realforce keyboards, which come along with Topre capacitive spring switch. It's tactile, good for typing, and quieter than Cherry brown and red switch.

Their price is quite expensive, around 300USD.

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UltraZelda64 said:

I have yet to find an example of a keyboard that uses them, very little information on it, and next to no comments from other people... do any current production keyboards actually come with this switch?

Cherry produces keyboard with cherry MX Clear keyboards. Particularly the g80-3000 LQCDE version (you can probably find a US layout or EU one too). I haven't searched much but the one place I saw it was "www.amazon.de". However I would recommend against getting one. They are not so common because people tend to not like them as much.  I listed them just because they were an option.

If I were you and lived in the U.S. I would get a DAS keyboard. Filco's are also very nice but they are ussualy on the more expensive side because of all the shipping. As we already mentioned the brand is not that important. It is more of what switch you would like. I personally wouldn't go for a ten key-less version just because I find the numpad very useful when doing math and entering long strings of numbers and it doesn't really seem to bother me. Additionally some games use the numpad (if you play games) and it can be a hassle to mount and dismount a tenkey.

Buckling spring definitely require more force to press  down than the cherry blue switches which you also seem to like. I personally use and love blues which rock at typing as long you like/don't mind the noise. That however does not mean that they are not good for gaming. In fact some players (like RTS players) prefer them over there linear counterparts.

Topre are loved by many but are definitely much more expensive, and there is a big chance you might not like them. They are the middle ground between rubber dome and full mechanical keyboard.

As a side note just to blow your mind away I will tell you that there are much more Cherry MX switches:
- Green
- Grey
- Dark Grey
- White

Are some of the more common ones.

Last edited by vaskozl (11-Jan-2013 17:40:41)

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I agree with not going 100% tenkeyless--which is why if I did get such a keyboard, I would also have to get separate numpad.  I could imagine some definite advantages with having the mouse closer to the main keyboard, and a separate numeric keypad further to the right and pushed out of the way until it's needed.

Anyway... I have since found one keyboard using Cherry MX Clear (alternately Cherry MX Black) switches... and it's an expensive, fully-backlit board meant especially for gaming: the Deck Legend.  That thing lights up like a Christmas tree, but some of the colors do look pretty cool.  Heh.

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Clears are the worst you could possibly get if gaming is your priority. They are incredibly tactile and have a stiff spring. They are the hardest switch to press trough the action point (not counting the space-bar switches). People usually don't fancy them as much because they feel to similar to rubber domes.

Do you game or not? If you do what kind of genres do you play?

FPS games require you to hold down keys and  tactile bump is not so pleasant, therefore red and black would be preferred for them. However in RTS games and other games where you use the keyboard to activate abilities you don't usually hold down keys for long. There tactility isn't an obstacle but a friend. I personally find tactility to be one of the biggest advantages to mechanical keyboards and the biggest disadvantage to touch screen/flat keyboards.

Take what your heart wants most so that you don't regret it later.

Last edited by vaskozl (11-Jan-2013 18:31:08)

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No, I was always more of a console gamer and a Nintendo/SEGA fan, and on those rare times I play a PC game it is usually either from the DOS era (ie. Duke Nukem 3D, Wolfenstein 3-D, the DOOM series, Epic Pinball, etc.) or some flight simulator.  There are some exceptions, but lately that's all I really care about.

If I had to, I would eventually get a board with special switches just for gaming.  But... PC gaming is such a low priority for me that I wouldn't feel the need to for quite a while, so it's not like I would have to plop down a couple hundred bucks on two keyboards overnight just to be satisfied.  Typing is my primary use.  But it wouldn't hurt to start thinking about the gaming options for when I am interested in buying a new keyboard specifically for gaming.

I wish there was a store or some other place around here that had demo keyboards of the various switch types available on display for a direct comparison... but, can't get that lucky.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (11-Jan-2013 19:13:41)
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If you touch type, then there is little need for a backlit keyboard.

I'm baffled as to why anyone would want a numpad, especially if they mouse with their right hand.  I say get rid of it!  The smaller form factors look less unweildy. 

You could make up for any deficiencies by using shortcuts (like directions on the home keys) on something like the Happy Hacking Pro!

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 20:13:05)

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I agree with pinkyache about backlight being useless if you touch type, since it just dis-concentrates you from the screen. If you don't touch type then you  shouldn't get one either since you should learn to touch type and not look at the keys. As for the NumPad, depends on whether you use it or not. I personally find it very nice to bind many of my controls to them in games (like say flight simulator) since they provide a very intuitive setting.

UltraZelda64 if you don't game, then get cherry blues or browns. Difference is that blues are a bit more tactile, slight stiffer and click when they go trough the actuation point. You should be able to try out a steel series 6gv2 and the razer blackwidow (both marketed as gaming hardware) trough the holes in the case in your local tech/game store. They have those pretty much anywhere.  You can get a feel of the tactile switches from the black widow and a feel of the linear ones from the 6gv2. See which you like better and whether you like the sound of the blues. Then you can proceed to choosing.

General note of advice: If something is marketed as gaming, it is not good for gaming. :)
If you are looking for quality in America you have 2 good choices: The DAS or a Filco which is more expensive.

Edit:The happy hacking and the topre keyboards I have no experience with. They have many good reviews, but they are crazy expensive as well. + they are not really mechanical switches.

Last edited by vaskozl (11-Jan-2013 19:51:01)

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