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    Newcomer here, need some advice!

    • Started by SunnyLee
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    • Registered: 12-Jan-2013
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    Hello!
    As the title suggests, I'm very new to this whole "alternate layout" thing. I've been researching up on it for about 2 weeks, with no prior knowledge of their existence before then. I'm a QWERTY touch typist at ~120 WPM at the moment.
    At the moment I vastly prefer Colemak over Dvorak, except for one thing that I don't understand (and is my actual question): why is the "h" key not placed under the finger? I understand that the Workman layout was designed to prevent such lateral movement, but I honestly have no idea if it has any merit or not. Either way, was there a conscious design choice to keep the H where it is? And do seasoned Colemak typists ever have any pain from too much lateral movement? This was one of the things I noticed while I was trying Dvorak (1 week, ~3 hours a day of training); the H key was very comfortable to type. But of course, as many people here point out, the odd placement of L, S, and the U and I keys doesn't seem optimal.

    Also, is there any information about Shai Coleman? I know it really *shouldn't* be a factor, but unfortunately I can't get that bias out of my head. Importantly, what is his profession? I know I should judge something by its objective value and not its inventor, but comparing an educational psychologist's invention compared to someone I have no clue about just gives me an uneasy feeling. Just like I wouldn't trust an accountant over an ergonomist for advice on ergonomics.

    This is a fantastic forum though, and I've read through a good many posts. Most* of you seem pretty nice (some of you can get pretty saucy :P ). I'm glad there's an active community for this type of thing, considering how little of the population actually knows/cares about the subject. Thank you all for your time reading this!

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
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    Welcome SunnyLee, hope you enjoy the forums and Colemak as much as me :)

    Yes, you can be sure that every key's position is carefully thought out. There have been quite a lot of suggestions on improving Colemak by moving some keys around but the state you see is quite optimized, I assure you.

    As for why the H is where it is – I'd give it mostly to two things: the fact that all the keys under your fingers (ARST NEIO) are more often used, and that on its current position it reduces the same finger ratio. The letters that are hit by the right index finger (JLHBNKM) are chosen so it's not very likely to follow one another, thus you wouldn't have to hit two consecutive keys with the same finger. There could be other reasons but these I'm sure were factor in the design choice.

    As a Colemaker for a couple of years now I can assure you I don't have any problem with the lateral "stretches". Like any other layout, Colemak has its own "character" and it takes a little while to get used to coming from another.

    I'm in building construction if it matters btw :P I wouldn't worry too much about Shai's background (I have no information either). Just look at the happy users.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (14-Jan-2013 00:07:38)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    I've gotten used to a certain amount of lateral float. It's required for alternate fingering techniques such as when typing the NK bigram with middle and index fingers to avoid unpleasant same-finger bigram typing. So hitting the H becomes part-stretch, part-float and it's not uncomfortable to me.

    I do agree that the DH positions aren't very good ones and I find the WF and UY positions at least on par with them, but then again the H in any of those positions looks like it would generate more same-finger which is bad.

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    DreymaR said:

    So hitting the H becomes part-stretch, part-float and it's not uncomfortable to me.

    Exactly why I wrote lateral "stretches" in quotes. Because it's not like I hold my hand on place and only stretch the fingers.

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    Wow, fast responses! Awesome :)
    I really am nitpicking, as like you said, "stretch" implies actual difficulty and strain. It's not like I had index finger pain when using QWERTY with the H in the exact same position, since I too do not anchor my hands/wrists while I type (which I understand it to be the correct method). Jeez, this stuff can really get intense! I've been so wrapped up in this that I don't even think things though anymore. Guess i gotta step back and actually think this through myself without 50 other people's opinions and anecdotal evidence, considering the vast amount of variety in finger/hand size/length, type of keyboard being used, previous experience touch typing, etc.

    I didn't even think of same finger ratio. I really should leave stuff like this to professionals and examine actual evidence!

    As you can see, I do tend to focus on irrelevant info, like the creator's background, the fact that Dvorak layout has stood the test of time (which I know for sure, while the newer Colemak I can only guess the future) or that Dvorak has many notable users like Steve Wozniak or Barbara Blackburn. But none of that info actually tells me anything particularly relevant!.

    Argh, enough rambling :P. The science is there, it feels comfortable, and it's known enough to be included in OS X (and hopefully Windows soon). And I really am getting tired of nitpicking every single thing as if this decision is a once-in-a-lifetime, forever-irreversible decision. Heck yes, I'm sticking with Colemak! Thank you guys for your quick responses, it really did help me in choosing. I hope that this site will continue to encourage new users to try out this wonderful layout.

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    A a once-in-a-lifetime, forever-irreversible decision? No, I don't think so, unless you type a lot of texts everyday as part of your job and so you can't afford to invest time to learn a new layout.
    I have tried Dvorak, Carpalx, Colemak, Workman, Norman and Vjustinak(no good atm) , in that order, and in the end I got back to Colemak and it felt like coming back home.
    Dvorak was not bad, except for the shorcuts and all that L,S,... positions. I didn't like all the other layouts, I felt uncomfortable with all those other ones.


    (I am currently trying to design a layout better than Colemak, but ,even if I succeed, Colemak is already a very good option in my opinion and other people's and I'd recommend it to anyone)


    Some interesting information about Dvorak:
    https://infohost.nmt.edu/~shipman/ergo/parkinson.html

    Last edited by vjustin (14-Jan-2013 02:25:57)
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    Any layout will have its own strengths and weaknesses.

    Colemak is pretty optimized, have many good hand rolling combinations, keeps the usual hotkeys and have a nice, helpful community here. It leans a bit (6%) to the right hand, and have some lateral movement problems with D and H keys as you mentioned.

    Workman layout solves the lateral movement at the cost of more same-finger ratios, which the Workman author forgot to mention. In terms of finger travel optimization, Workman is 3-5% worse, but is more balanced between hands (1% to the right hand).

    Dvorak is worse than Colemak in terms of familiarity and finger travel, but it seemingly has the best ratio of hand alternation and is readily available in all OSes. It leans heavily (15%) to the right hand and overworks your right pinky.

    Either of these three would be pretty good to all Qwerty users.

    I choose Colemak.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (14-Jan-2013 03:52:15)
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    SunnyLee said:

    I really should leave stuff like this to professionals and examine actual evidence!

    I've looked, and I've found neither "professionals" nor "actual evidence". Apparently, there are no medical researchers interested in keyboard layouts, and consequently, there are no studies. So we don't really know anything. For instance, we don't know:

    • How long it takes on average to retrain to Colemak,

    • whether an individual would be expected to be faster on Colemak than on QWERTY, or

    • whether or not Colemak is less likely than, say, QWERTY or Dvorak, to induce pain or RSI.

    What we do have is statistical analysis of varying rigor --- Tony_VN sums it up neatly in his post above --- and of course the collective experiences of the members of this forum. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that Colemak is great, but if your standard of evidence is controlled studies, then you're out of luck.

    By the way, if you're typing QWERTY at 120 words per minute, why are you changing layouts?  Won't it be an enormous hassle for a minute benefit?

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    You likely won't be a lot faster on Colemak, but it should be comfortable (and in my opinion, fun!) to type on. And fast typists can pick up speed quite fast with a new layout too - at least, Ryan Heise did.

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    That's exactly what I'm going for: comfort. I learned to type when I was 8, as my family was a very computer-based, programmer-centric family. My father (now retired) had his run-in with RSI, and my mother now can't type for longer than an hour without finger pain, presumably from arthritis (she REFUSES to see a doctor).
    As for me, I only recently started looking into this after my brother started to complain about finger pain while typing (more than usual), and he's only 32! Then again, I probably won't be typing as much as he would, considering he's in software engineering and I'm planning to go into a Psychology field, but either way I don't see many downsides, since I'm not terribly busy. Might as well start now while I'm 20 instead of after I start feeling pain. Comfort is key.

    And yes, the lack of controlled studies is disappointing. With Colemak it's understandable, considering it's relatively new, but Dvorak, which has been around for quite some time, I still can't find any recent, extensive studies. However, with ergonomists studying the causes of RSI and motion economy which both seem to be incorporated into Colemak (less movement of fingers, avoiding awkward hand movements/positions as much as possible), I find this far more reliable than the anecdotal evidence from posts of people not liking it because they "tried it for a day" or liking it because they are more comfortable (while "typing at 1/4 of my original speed").

    You're right though debois, I still need to take everything with a grain of salt. I do wish there was more research done on this, considering how common the keyboard is in the world today. Although the actual keyboard shape is more important than the layout I still think it does make a noticeable difference and I hope to not suffer any serious pain from typing.

    ...Nah, who am I kidding? The biggest factor is the status. "Hey, I know multiple layouts!" :P

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    If you're worried about RSI and are touch typing and don't have an RSI-diagnosis yet, then split keyboards are actually known to have some preventive effect.

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    Yeah... but many split keyboards are membrane crap so beware. I'd rather use a good mechanical keyboard with the Angle/Wide mods (see my sig topic) than a curved/split Microsoft or Logitech "Ergo" aka The Emperor's New Ergonomic Keyboard.

    Last edited by DreymaR (14-Jan-2013 16:23:12)

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    Really I'd expect a modern layout to better where older projects have failed, with reference to publishing the principles and motivations behind their projects.

    I get your frustrations.  As punters we could do without the complexity of choice.

    Your speed is excellent for a self confessed part timer.  There would be some unlearning/relearning to get you back up to speed with another layout, and you will have to suffer the annoyances of going against the grain.

    If you kept Qwerty, could you make your typing a little more comfortable?  Perhaps getting into better habits?  If you don't mind, or even enjoy Qwerty, then why change at all?

    You seem to think that you'd get further with changing the 'ergonomy' of the standard keyboard.  Or switching to something different.  I'm inclined to agree.  Perhaps a different keyboard would be a good investment?

    I'd read that those with arthritis for the most part can still type quite well.  Your Mum might struggle more with the mouse than keyboard:

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/715979

    Last edited by pinkyache (20-Jan-2013 02:34:01)

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    Agreed, especially on the "choice" part. It seems that each newer layout that comes out claims to "improve" the previous layout, with the appropriate statistics to back it up. Since I don't *plan* on changing layouts often throughout my life, I'd be better off picking the *best* layout that's available right now instead of waiting for the perfect layout while sticking to QWERTY. Too bad it's near impossible to define that, with every new iteration of a layout claiming new improvements, while supporters of the previous layout claim that the design is flawed, supported by their own claims.

    I am also looking into different keyboards actually, two of them which I'm interested in: the Kinesis Advantage and the Typematrix. The Typematrix would make more sense for me, since it's more portable and I'm working on my laptop half the time in the library (and the Kinesis is far too expensive for me ATM). I'm using a Thinkpad X220, which already has a great keyboard, but I don't think it'll ever beat a keyboard specifically designed to be ergonomic.

    I don't mind typing in QWERTY, but I've never come in contact with another keyboard layout until now to compare with. And comparing right now wouldn't be a fair assessment, considering how familiar I am with QWERTY, and how "comfortable" Colemak feels right now because I'm typing at a fraction of the speed. I won't know for sure until I am at least somewhat familiar with Colemak and type at a decent pace, but I don't know when that will be.

    For now though, as you said, better habits would produce a much better outcome and is the least cost-effective to fix. I'm trying to take frequent breaks while typing, stretching, etc. Hopefully, combining all these factors (layout, ergonomic keyboard, better habits) will significantly decrease any chances of injuries in the future.

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    I'm familiar with the x220, my partner has one.  Very similar to my Thinkpad keyboard.

    Perhaps you could buy an ergonomic keyboard like the Kenesis for home and practice 'insert layout here' on it, and keep Owerty on the Thinkpad.

    Dreymar has a method where you can tease in your new layout by swapping a few keys at a time (or there's minimak, or some other Qwerty variants).

    Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 19:55:10)

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    SunnyLee said:

    Agreed, especially on the "choice" part. It seems that each newer layout that comes out claims to "improve" the previous layout, with the appropriate statistics to back it up.

    Must have missed that part.

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    pinkyache said:
    SunnyLee said:

    Agreed, especially on the "choice" part. It seems that each newer layout that comes out claims to "improve" the previous layout, with the appropriate statistics to back it up.

    Must have missed that part.

    I'm guessing you mean the "appropriate statistics" part, not the "claim" part, considering almost every layout makes some claim of improvement.
    As for the statistics, any of the serious contenders (Workman, Asset, the many Carpalx layouts, among others) all have actual numbers that show their improvement. Yes, they don't show the downside, like Workman's increased vertical movement in exchange for decreased lateral movement, but they all have the stats. The fact that there isn't one large compiled list of the alternative layouts with *objectively* determined advantages and disadvantages makes choosing and researching all that much harder.

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    It's hard to determine the effect of advantages and disadvantages. Some have longer fingers, some dislike the upper row, some think hand alteration is better and some prefer rolls.

    It'd be nice with a compiled list of the more objective stats like distance, same-finger, finger balance etc. But that's available with the keyboard layout analyzers I think? Again, they tend to spew out more data than you can digest and it's up to your subjective preferences what to look at.

    Last edited by DreymaR (15-Jan-2013 16:23:53)

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    Just a quick update.
    It's been ~10 days since I've been practicing Colemak. I'm now at ~45 WPM, although I'm making a lot of errors (~92% accuracy). Mapping capslock to backspace is brilliant, so I'm definitely loving that.
    Me worrying about the placement of H? Not anymore. It really is a non-issue now, and everything feels comfortable.
    I think I'll switch to full-time Colemak from now on. Will periodically post anything unexpected that comes up.

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    Holy poop, time sure does fly fast. I can't believe it's been 8 months already. Just thought I'd write some thoughts in case it may in some way be helpful.
    Around February, I switched to Dvorak just to see if it's any better. Also, I just wanted to see if I could do it as a challenge. After I hit an average of ~80WPM (which I based off of Typeracer's last 10 races' speed), I started feeling some tingling in my right pinky finger when I would type for more than an hour. This was a bit of an issue, as most of my lectures are 75 minutes long and I have some profs that churn out massive amounts of information. (Though the problem is more likely a deficit in my notetaking skills, but either way, I would like to type more than an hour without this tingling feeling).

    So I switched BACK to Colemak and have been typing it ever since. My "best speed" on Typeracer is 143WPM, and my average is ~100WPM (again, just on last 10 races). I think I need to look into some other websites though, as most of the quotes in Typeracer I now recognize.

    The shortcuts, which have been said by a lot of people on this forum, really are nice to have. The only one I'm missing is D, which isn't too common compared to some other ones. It's much nicer to have T and R be closer (and P to some extent). I've noticed that I tend to do Ctrl + Backspace quite a lot, and I still have to get used to doing the Ctrl with the right hand and the backspace with the left. I wish I fixed this while I was learning, but now I'm very used to turning my wrist to hit both Ctrl and Backspace with my left hand, and that causes some pain after a while. I bought a Filco Minila, and that lacks a right Ctrl, so I'll have to find some workaround there.

    But all in all, I'm loving Colemak. It's very comfortable for me now, and I just *feel* all the rolls flowing smoothly. Off the top of my head, I really like typing the word "around" - it has a roll on the left and a nice circular motion with the right hand, with a hand alternation between the two motions. I'm glad I took this up, and I feel I'll be using it for as long as keyboards are around.

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    Welcome back! Glad to see you're doing so well.

    Using the Extend mod, Ctrl+Back becomes a matter of Caps+T+O which is really easy to hit even if it's one more key. As an added bonus, that's Ctrl with the left hand and Back with the right like you're used to. I use Extend navigation/editing... well... extensively. ;)

    Alternatively, using a Wide mod lets you reclaim the right-hand Back key if one less key travel is enough improvement for you. To alleviate the right pinky load this strategy leads to, the Wide mods take 4 keys off the right pinky's roster. If you're prone to pinky problems, I'd recommend the Extend mod at least but you could do both if you're interested.

    At any rate, I wouldn't want to depend on twisting the right hand to reach RCtrl each time – sounds dangerous if you ask me.

    Last edited by DreymaR (18-Sep-2013 19:09:07)

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    Good to hear that your journey of alternative layouts has such nice ending. By using a mechanical keyboard, your chance of hand injury are almost non-existent.

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