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Dvorak vs. Colemak question

  • Started by Honfclibur
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Even if we were to somehow achieve this "perfect" layout. It would no longer be perfect after 100 years, since many new words would have appeared and replaced some of the current words we use. Example: "smart phone", "ipad" and "laptop" are words that were not used back when Dvorak was created, now however, they are incredibly common and you see them on every ad you look.

Also, stop arguing over Colemak and Dvorak, most statistics will show you that they score virtually the same. Depending on the text Dvorak may score a bit higher or Colemak may score a bit higher. Both are much better than qwerty but neither is significantly better  than the other.

I chose colemak, due to the fact that I could already touch type on qwerty and therefor colemak would allow for a much easier transition between the 2.  Moreover colemak' had an amazing community which was much brighter than any Dvorak one that I had seen.

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The title of the thread at this point is misleading.  It might be an idea for the title/subject to be edited to reflect the original question.

Reading Dickens you'd barely believe that the English language had changed radically in the last hundred years.  I doubt a few product names will have a huge impact on our long term vocabulary (even less if they are portmanteaus).

I haven't seen any arguing.  Perhaps you are looking at another thread.

We all know Dvorak is the better layout, end of ;)

(^^ said with tongue firmly embedded in cheek, for those who totally missed it.)

Last edited by pinkyache (17-Nov-2013 15:31:43)

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pinkyache said:

We all know Dvorak is the better layout, end of ;)

LOL... Nicely said. And that too on a Colemak forum.
I guess deciding on which of the layouts  would be better in the long run is kinda relative. I'm just guessing it depends on the user.
Most who have moved over to Colemak have mentioned its advantages, but none have mentioned any potential faults.  A few Dvorak users remain who claim more comfort than with Colemak. I would have to agree with that.
But since I need to use shortcuts, Colemak remains my layout of choice, that is until I find a way to make the shortcuts easier on Windows, using Dvorak.

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vaskozl  said:

Even if we were to somehow achieve this "perfect" layout. It would no longer be perfect after 100 years, since many new words would have appeared and replaced some of the current words we use. Example: "smart phone", "ipad" and "laptop" are words that were not used back when Dvorak was created, now however, they are incredibly common and you see them on every ad you look.

That is very true, but also no one of us will be still alive in 100 years, so any current layout we choose will be useful to us for many decades.

pinkyache said:

We all know Dvorak is the better layout, end of ;)

At least not for people that want to keep zxcv shorcuts.

knightjp said:

Most who have moved over to Colemak have mentioned its advantages, but none have mentioned any potential faults.

I have moved completely to Colemak (30 wpm touch typing), and one potential fault is that IMO it seems to me like it is slow to gain speed, but my qwerty speed was about 40 wpm so I can't really know for sure.

Last edited by vjustin (17-Jan-2013 18:25:48)
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pinkyache said:

We all know Dvorak is the better layout, end of ;)

Google said:

ar·gue 
/ˈärgyo͞o/
Verb
1. Give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.
2. Persuade someone to do or not to do (something) by giving reasons: "I tried to argue him out of it".

You are trying to persuade people into thinking that Dvorak is better than Colemak, and you do so without giving reasoning of why that is so! I am tired from reading Dvorak vs Colemak! Both are good none is any better, to be worth so much frustration over deciding what to use.

Also, I said that there really is no point seeking a perfect layout because:
1. The fraction by which it is better than Colemak and Dvorak would be neglect-able.
2. After time it wouldn't be perfect any more so:
3. If we to integrate it into all of society that will mean that we will have to make everyone change layouts every hundred of years.

Additionally, I could probably argue that Qwerty is somehow better than colemak and dvorak since it is the layout that the fastest speeds have been clocked with.

Last edited by vaskozl (17-Jan-2013 19:20:25)

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vaskozl said:

Also, I said that there really is no point seeking a perfect layout because:
1. The fraction by which it is better than Colemak and Dvorak would be neglect-able.
2. After time it wouldn't be perfect any more so:
3. If we to integrate it into all of society that will mean that we will have to make everyone change layouts every hundred of years.

If by "no point seeking a perfect layout" you mean between Colemak and Dvorak or maybe other existing layouts you are very right.

On the other hand there might be a point in trying to design a better layout because:
1. Oh, the challenge and the fun of it!
2. Any improvement on the ergonomics might be valuable for people with RSI maybe.


And about integrating it into all of society and meaning that we will have to make everyone change layouts every hundred of years. I see no problem, and maybe in 20 years every device will be reading our minds, and we all will may be speaking chinglish or something.. so no problem..

Last edited by vjustin (17-Jan-2013 20:09:57)
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vaskozl said:

Additionally, I could probably argue that Qwerty is somehow better than colemak and dvorak since it is the layout that the fastest speeds have been clocked with.

Let me say this... QWERTY is king amongst the layouts... But not because its better, but because most people are content until they're forced to change. That I'd say is what this thread is about. Its about one person wanting to try out that age old saying, "prevention is better than cure."
You know what... I'd agree.. arguing over which layout is better isn't going worth it, 'cuz there is nothing completely perfect to compare it too.
Dvorak and Colemak score so well.
I chose an alternative layout not because I type a whole lot. I used to be in data entry and believe me, if there was ever a time that I could've used Dvorak or Colemak, it was then. But now, my current job doesn't have me in front of a computer all the time. I chose a different layout to QWERTY because I like life hacks. Better ways to do things intrigue me. If there is a better way to do a job, you find me choosing that, even if its something experimental.

You are wrong though. The fastest speeds are on Dvorak; not QWERTY.

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@vaskozl is not wrong about the fastest speeds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute said:

The fastest typing speed ever, 216 words in one minute, was achieved by Stella Pajunas in 1946 on an IBM electric.[6][7][8][9] As of 2005, writer Barbara Blackburn was the fastest English language typist in the world, according to The Guinness Book of World Records. Using the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, she has maintained 150 wpm for 50 minutes, and 170 wpm for shorter periods. She has been clocked at a peak speed of 212 wpm.

qwerty has the fastest typing speed record

Last edited by vjustin (17-Jan-2013 21:24:15)
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vjustin said:

@vaskozl is not wrong about the fastest speeds:
qwerty has the fastest typing speed record

True :) . The fastest typist currently is considered Sean Wrona, and he also uses qwerty.

Conclusion: The speed of the typists isn't a reliable measurement of how effective a certain layout is. So you can't say anything like: Dvorak is the best since some of the fastest typists have used it.

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vaskozl said:

Conclusion: The speed of the typists isn't a reliable measurement of how effective a certain layout is. So you can't say anything like: Dvorak is the best since some of the fastest typists have used it.

Well not any more at least.
I agree with you there. Speed isn't a factor worth considering in a comparison like this. Like I said earlier, the main factor in question in this is the long term health and comfort the layouts are able to provide.

Last edited by knightjp (17-Jan-2013 23:14:57)
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"Better" is very lightly used. I think "better" is different for different people and I'm sure for some "better" layout is one that they can type faster on. Now whether or not the top typing speed is affected by the layout is a whole different question, on which btw I think yes, they are related.

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Wow, it's hilarious to read such funny comparisons :-))

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What pafkata said. Lots of lightheadedness going on here it seems, as has been too common on the forums lately methinks.

As for the comfort question: For me Colemak feels more comfortable than Dvorak did so that "truth" up there is like so many other "truths". I can't say whether it's the layout itself or my typing habits, or a combination of these. So I try to not make tall claims. The hard facts are easier to deal with, such as the fact that Dvorak has more hand alteration and Colemak more rolls - and it seems people have individual experiences concerning which of these work best for them. For me, both are comfortable.

The speed claims are just plain stupid. We have QWERTY, Dvorak and Colemak typists scoring high speeds these days. There have been few Dvorak typists and fewer Colemak typists and no Colemak typists have had the benefit of training their layout from childhood like for instance Sean Wrona has on QWERTY. So judging by the existing data I'd say it proves that neither layout is inherently very slow - and not a lot more. Sean types very alternatively compared to the textbook QWERTYist, so textbook QWERTY could still be slow - I don't know.

Last edited by DreymaR (21-Jan-2013 09:47:01)

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Despite belief that I should choose a layout that I'm most comfortable with, I choose to stay with Colemak due to the fact that I need to be able to use the shortcuts. Thought perhaps I could try that left hand mouse and dvorak that Pinkyache uses again. After a little while, I decided that I need to have the shortcuts at whether I use them or not. Colemak it is.

Last edited by knightjp (19-Jan-2013 21:42:59)
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