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    Differences in typing... or...?

    • Started by UltraZelda64
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    • From: Ohio, U.S.
    • Registered: 09-Dec-2012
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    I've been going at Dvorak for a while now, around December 5-8.  On January 6, I posted in a previous topic I made that:

    "My average throughout the day is still all over the place, but in general it's somewhere in the mid to high 30s."

    Well... it appears that I've hit a brick wall, because that remains exactly true today.  I'm not sure, but I think the ease of getting in that WPM range may have skyrocketed since I posted that, and in fact it is pretty difficult to get lower now (in other words, it's pretty much guaranteed).  But still, it seems as if I've got stuck somehow.  As I previously mentioned in other threads my old average speed was in the mid to high 50s with QWERTY.

    So I've been thinking... what is causing this?  I haven't even used QWERTY for long enough now that I can't remember what exactly I did that may have been different... but, I think I have a few ideas.  While I have learned to touch-type in high school and could in fact easily type without looking down (and rarely did look down when I typed what came to mind), when really trying to go for pure speed in a typing test I think I used to "cheat" subconsciously in order to get whatever it is I'm copying typed on the screen as fast as possible.

    If that meant using two fingers for some key combination that is normally "properly" done with one finger of one hand ("er" being the most common), that's what I did.  If I had to hit two keys on the middle of the board that are normally done with the pointer fingers of both hands separately, I think I would actually use the pointer finger that was already over there to do what is meant to be the work of the other hand (hey, it would be just another time-consuming stretch...).  These little cheats (and probably others), I think, may have caused my "fastest" actual recorded QWERTY speeds to be anything but proper or realistic.  My hands were flying all over the place so badly at the highest speeds, I ended up having to look down quite frequently just so I hit the right keys.  But... no doubt about it... my accuracy was rock solid!

    And now I'm beginning to think that, because I am trying to learn the Dvorak layout as correctly as possible right from the start, these little previously-hidden bottlenecks of "proper" touchtyping technique are showing themselves.  In fact, I pretty much never look down now when typing Dvorak, although I used to semi-frequently with QWERTY when typing at higher speeds (used to drastically help with accuracy, knowing for sure a finger was going to land where I thought it would).  I did this primarily to keep the positions of my fingers in check and my hands aligned, and it was especially useful when there was row hopping and/or difficult to reach keys like QWERTY's Q/T/Y/P/B to deal with.

    Has anyone else noticed any weird transitions to another layout like this?  I wonder just how much of this is caused by bad habits I've accumulated over time in order to to get by QWERTY's many inadequacies, and how much is really caused by the fact that I am still working on improving my muscle memory.  As it is, while I can type with much less mental effort than the first few weeks (even month), it's not back to nearly zero like it was with QWERTY... there are certain letters/sequences that still throw me off, and my accuracy still hasn't quite came back yet.

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    • Registered: 12-Dec-2012
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    I was in a similar situation when trying to learn Colemak. Practicing common trigrams and words helped me break that barrier.  Here is a list of common words and trigrams in English.

    I would think that the bottleneck is your brain, not your hands. Your hands can move really quickly; the problem is that it takes your brain a while to decide where they should go. Typing becomes fast when that decision is automatic, subconscious. By practicing common words and trigrams, you make that decision automatic, moving the apartment from your brain to your hands. I should think.

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    It seems that in order to gain more speed one first needs to achieve a high accuracy first ( 97%). That's what is recommended on https://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?titl … ing_tutors

    Also someone recommended typeracer.com and it actually is quite good, specially when you try to aim for accuracy instead of speed, and relax, so your fingers start to flow easily.

    Last edited by vjustin (18-Jan-2013 14:56:58)
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    • From: Ohio, U.S.
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    I definitely feel as if my mind is the bottleneck here.  And my accuracy could definitely be improved.  My problem there is, by focusing on improving my accuracy, my speed suffers.  So far, it seems like I'm stuck; I have to choose one or the other.  And it's a double-edged sword; if my accuracy goes down too much, of course I end up with the same result: reduced overall speed.  Occasionally, I also get a minor confusion where I have to think for a couple seconds before I remember where the next keys are, but that's nowhere near as bad as it was in the first two weeks or so... and it usually happens when I type faster at the expense of accuracy.  Either way, that seems to firmly position my average speed in the 30s.

    Now that I typed this though, I think my typing *does* feel slower in general than it was on QWERTY.  So clearly I must just not be there yet.  Which leads me to wonder just how many more weeks of typing it will take to get back to the 50s/60 (my goal).  Hopefully not months... I still would like to give Colemak a try, and possibly CarpalX QGMLWB.

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    So, do you have a Dvorak keyboard? If you do then why not take looks at it while you are writting.

    Have you heard of Sean Wrona? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GDusA21cEA)
    He doesn't touch type strictly, he uses different fingers for the same key depending on the word, see the post he did on the forum, explaining his style:
    https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=8851#p8851

    I suppose learning that style would require using a keyboard with the keys on the position of your layout.

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    • From: Ohio, U.S.
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    No, actually I have only a standard QWERTY keyboard.  I briefly looked at an image of the Dvorak layout when I first switched, and soon got some blank labels that I wrote the letters of all changed keys on.  Kept the labels on, replacing them as needed for about two weeks, after which I just removed them as they wore off.  I have since removed all of them, so now I'm back to using QWERTY keys.  Like I mentioned though, I do not look at the board any more; I stopped needing them within the first month.

    And holy shit... that guy's fingers look like they're going into convulsions or something!  Damn, that's fast.  I think I'd be happy at 80-100 WPM if I could manage that... but I'll just stay realistic here and aim for ~60 at least, which is a much more likely goal to reach.

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    Yeah I'd be happy to be at 60 wpm too.
    Veterans of this forum seem to be about 70-80 wpm. Although I don't know if they are colemak enthusiasts because they were able to reach those speeds or if they were able to reach those speeds because they were enthusiasts in the first place.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    I didn't become a Colemaker because I was fast, but with Colemak I've become faster. I can't say whether the same amount of dedication with another layout would've produced the same benefits. With QWERTY I did 50-55 WPM, with Dvorak 55-60 WPM and with Colemak I've reached some 65-70 WPM (not counting peak speeds because they're not usually in play).

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    To overcome 60wpm barrier I have to recognize which words I can go fast and which ones I should go slowly, then go fast when I can.
    Typing suddenly is like playing music.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (19-Jan-2013 11:47:02)
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    UltraZelda64
    >Which leads me to wonder just how many more weeks of typing it will take to get back to the 50s/60 (my goal).  Hopefully not months...

    Well it depends how impressionable your mind is.   I actually suspect that it will take you a good year or so to get very comfortable with the new layout.  This April I'll hit the three year mark touch typing with Dvorak.  It's taken about this long to become at ease with the layout. 

    Your shortcuts will enter as you become more proficient and confident.  I've tried for fun typing with less fingers - like typing without the pinkies - and I can pretty much do it (slower of course), but it does suggest that I'm becoming more adept at keyboarding.

    Considering I'm realtively new to touch typing, and I now trot along at about 50/60 wpm, with the occasional gallop, it must be attainable for others - as I'm old and a little decrepit.  It just requires practice and patience.  It is probably best if you just forget about speed until it finds you.

    Last edited by pinkyache (19-Jan-2013 15:59:22)

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    @UltraZelda64: There you have it. It seems to be quite achievable to reach 60 wpm in your new layout.

    So maybe we could say that getting back to your Qwerty speed would not depend on what new layout you choose, be it Colemak, Dvorak, Carpalx... (But IMO, Colemak is the best)

    Oh, I forgot to mention that there are even faster colemakers out there, like Ryan Heise:
    http://hi-games.net/typing-test/watch?u=1

    Last edited by vjustin (19-Jan-2013 15:05:24)
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    If you look at Sean Wrona typing, you can see how contorted his body is, his left shoulder is much lower than the right, it looks really asymmetrical, probably the standard keyboard and Qwerty conspiring againts him.  I bet that's not healthy in the long run.  Probably why my right shoulder isn't that happy.  He's quite fast though, I'll give him that.

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    pinkyache said:

    If you look at Sean Wrona typing, you can see how contorted his body is, his left shoulder is much lower than the right, it looks really asymmetrical, probably the standard keyboard and Qwerty conspiring againts him.  I bet that's not healthy in the long run.  Probably why my right shoulder isn't that happy.  He's quite fast though, I'll give him that.

    Probably we will see him around here in some years as a Colemak convert after qwerty has finally taken its toll on him.

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    Hmm... I will probably just continue to practice often then, and hopefully that will help to speed things up.  It's just weird that I got up to a decent speed and relatively comfortable typing within a month, and then all of a sudden it's like I hit a brick wall.  Maybe I'll be lucky and this is just a period where everything settles, so sooner or later I can get back to speeding up.  I just thought, maybe incorrectly, that because I wasn't already a speed demon to begin with, It shouldn't take too long to get near my previous average.  Then again... I guess this is only like a month and a half, so maybe I'm just getting impatient.

    My fastest on Hi-Games with Dvorak last night was 41 or 42 WPM... I was hoping for just a few higher.  Oh well.  Still not bad for a minute of sustained copying, really... that always was one of my weak points in typing; copying word for word exactly instead of just what comes to mind.  One thing I noticed, one of the words that seems to never fail to give me trouble is "people."  Errors galore if I attempt to type it at full speed, and even when typing slower I have to put extra thought into it.

    By the way, I tried QWERTY on TypeRacer last night just for the hell of it... I can get 10-15 WPM and obscene numbers of errors (literally it seems like every other keypress).  Heh... my skills of that layout have been utterly destroyed.  I don't really care though, because Dvorak should be a stock option on every single computer I come across.  It would help to remember most of the bottom row and punctuation, though, for when I give a few of the other layouts a try.

    Last edited by UltraZelda64 (20-Jan-2013 05:23:23)
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    This is very interesting.  I think I may have solved my current mystery.  Trying to find alternative typing games and tests, I was at the Learn Colemak page, where I found:

    Power Typing typing test (I recommend practicing the "frequent words" lessons)

    I thought, well... it does seem that I tend to just blow by common words in typing tests, yet I always get held back at some point from other words, which seems to be what really wrecks my final WPM.  I thought that would be an interesting thing to verify, so I did the test:

    http://www.powertyping.com/typing_test/ … test.shtml
    [The first one, 57 words]

    The results were interesting...
    your typing rate is :  48 wpm
    words typed : 57
    mistakes made : 4
    which is 3.3 mistakes per minute

    So the hurdle really does seem to be certain less common problem words and key sequences.  Unfortunately, there seems to be many of them.  On the test I was trying to balance my focus on speed and accuracy, typing at a somewhat comfortable speed that was intended to not harm my WPM by too much, yet not destroy my accuracy... but as you can tell, my accuracy was still not the greatest.  Still though, it seems that most of my QWERTY speed is, in fact, somewhere... just hidden in the loads of letter sequences that are less frequent and therefore less practiced.  If I really focused, I am sure I could easily get closer to my old 55-60 WPM on that after a few tries (maybe low to mid 50s).  As it is now, in "real" tests, I think my maximum finishing WPM is still 41 or 42.

    Now, maybe if I could find some way to correct this... like some sort of drill full of sentences just loaded with difficult words, and very few common ones... I think that'd get me somewhere.  I still need to improve my accuracy, though.  I think that's some good advice given by Shai on that page, I think I'll practice that test and the others to improve by ability to type common words... I'm admittedly a bit spotty at some of them.  My speed even there could be improved.

    Jan. 21 Update: I have finally, slowly but steadily, passed this hurdle over the last couple days.  I have managed to get average speeds in the 1-minute and 2-minute tests at Hi-Games.net of 40-42 WPM, and my maximum so far was 44 WPM.  My ending times are now more consistently around 40 WPM, and I have noticed that many more less common words that required a bit of thought can now be entered with little to no thought at all.  Still making more typos than I want, but I think my accuracy is slowly improving.

    Last edited by UltraZelda64 (22-Jan-2013 04:52:48)
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