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  • Started by UltraZelda64
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  • From: Ohio, U.S.
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I agree that backlit keys--while they can look pretty cool--are pretty pointless.  I don't need to look at the keyboard myself while typing, so the use of the backlight for me would be limited to seeing to make sure my hands are set up and fingers properly in position on the home row before actually starting to type.  That said--I can fully imagine why a gamer might want something like that.  It would allow them to better set the mood and atmosphere of the game by dimming or completely turning off the ambient lights, yet still allow them to use the keyboard and play the game.  Meanwhile the fancy colors would be some sort of fashion statement.

vaskozl said:

Edit:The happy hacking and the topre keyboards I have no experience with. They have many good reviews, but they are crazy expensive as well. + they are not really mechanical switches.

Yeah... I just looked up the Happy Hacking keyboard.  It's unique, unusual, interesting, cute, and downright tiny, yet supposedly fully functional... but $300?  Damn... I don't think that price could be justified.  I wouldn't mind typing on one of those... but only at a more reasonable price.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (11-Jan-2013 21:38:03)
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Happy hacking not mechanical then?  I must have dreamt otherwise.  Damn it.  I love the form factor.

https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php … d=pdkb400b

It looks pretty mechanical that switch, what am I missing?

Last edited by pinkyache (12-Jan-2013 01:50:01)

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I used to really like my backlit keyboard.  I wouldn't go out and buy one now that I can touch type, but it was very useful when I was a hunt and pecker.

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Jan-2013 20:04:04)

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Pinkyache from the link you posted, if you scroll down a bit you will see some yellow text explaining how the switches actually work. In simple they are an elevated rubber dome with a spring under it. Now don't let that fool you. These switches are incredibly reliable and well made, and do have a bit of tactile feedback, since you feel it when you reach the dome. The biggest advantage to topre switches is that they are very quite, while still providing tactile feedback. With that said, I still don't think they are worth the enormous price you have to pay for them.

I have backlit on my laptop keyboard not because I wanted it but because the model included it. I hate it when it is turned on, because when it turns on it shines in my eyes even when I am looking directly in the screen. The shine in my eyes then forces my pupils to contract, making it much harder to see anything in the dark. Anyway I also pretty much never play in a complete dark room just because I prefer to have a clear view of the items in my room/on my desk.

Posted without the aid of a rodent.

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Hello, pinkyache. Is there any way I can contact you outside these forums?. A mail address perhaps?. thank you.

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A fun anecdote: My father plays the organ. He hates electric couplings, as they don't give the tactile feedback of a pneumatic coupling (when the valve opens, the air pressure drops so you can feel the key give). Those people can play incredibly complex Bach pieces and really need a good input system for it. To me, it's completely analogous to the tactility of our keyboard switches. But it may take a little getting used to before you'll appreciate it.

I don't like clicks. But I do like tactile feedback before the key bottoms out. I believe such feedback can work well with the muscle memory! I don't depend on it though.

Last edited by DreymaR (16-Jan-2013 01:13:45)

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Even though I have no personal experience with mechanical keyboards (yeah, I know – I've been using laptop exclusively for a few years now), I can agree with DreymaR. I notice that when I take my headphones off, so I can hear the keys' sound, I tend to sync my key presses better and with the better rhythm I get higher accuracy and speed. I could only imagine the feedback from the mechanical keyboard to be more beneficial.

I usually don't do that though. I like my music :P

Last edited by pafkata90 (16-Jan-2013 05:45:12)
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I just thought I'd post a little update. WASD Keyboards sells a keyswitch sampler pack, containing one of each of the switches that they carry (Cherry MX Black, Red, Blue and Brown), plus one keycap of each color they have (11 total) and five each of three different types of o-rings.  Just over $10 with shipping, and I've played around with the kit some.  My opinion of the switches is very similar to what I read and was expecting based on info I read on the web...

Cherry MX Blue: I really like this one... love the clickiness and this one's got some very strong tactility.  They really kick back.  Probably my favorite of the package, but it's not as loud as what I was expecting based on the videos.

Cherry MX Brown: Meh... a let down. I have read some people saying that the browns, when typing, you can barely feel them... and from what I can tell, the tactility of this switch is very muted.  They weren't kidding... the browns are weak.  It feels more like a key that struggles halfway and then just continues on like the Red. It feels more like a defect than a deliberate notification that the switch has been activated to me...

Cherry MX Black: This feels closest to my rubber dome in terms of pressure required to bottom out, yet at the same time so much different... and smoother.  I actually like it.

Cherry MX Red: What can I say?  Feels like the Black, but with less force required.

Unfortunately, while this set confirmed my suspicions on the Blue (that I'd like it) and Brown (that I might not), the Black and Red were a different story.  I like the way they feel, but I think it'll take a full keyboard of each to determine for sure whether I like the extra weight or not.  On the other hand, it makes me really wish the package contained a Clear switch, because if it's heavy-springed like the Black, but has a much more pronounced tactile feel compared to the Brown, then it might be a pretty good choice.  Too bad the Deck, an expensive board, is the only one I know of that can be bought with Clear switches...

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@Ultra, do you really think that you can tell how the keys would feel to type on with just your samples?

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pinkyache said:

@Ultra, do you really think that you can tell how the keys would feel to type on with just your samples?

Depends, really.

As a definite, sure-fire way to tell exactly what would, no doubt, be the best for me in the long run?  Or in other words, to see exactly what the typing experience would be when typing on a board loaded with those switches?  No, not at all.  Only an extended trial period of a keyboard equipped with one of each switch type will tell for sure, but due to cost, this is really not a practical option for me right now right now.  I was very happy to have been able to get the kit that I got, because I just can't afford a new keyboard any time soon.

As a cheap way to get a better "feel" for how the switches themselves feel relative to one another, which I can combine with my knowledge based on various descriptions I've read Internet, and come to my own conclusion and make a much more educated decision than I ever would be able to otherwise?  Definitely.  It sure beats the alternatives, which include going to the local stores and testing out a bunch of... brand-name rubber dome keyboards on display that I am not interested in at this point, or buying multiple keyboards for $100+ each in 100% trial and error.

I have actually found that my conclusion after playing with these switches is that my original thoughts based on what I read were pretty accurate.  What, expectedly, did not leave me with much to go by was Black vs. Red... my research indicated that, other than force required to actuate and bottom out, these two keyswitches are virtually identical in feel.  My trial of these two switches indicated the same thing, which means that--for these two switches especially--a real side-by-side keyboard comparison of the two is pretty much required.

Getting a good "feel" for the force required and the way it will feel to each finger while typing is probably impossible to achieve without real keyboards for comparison... but things like tactility and actuation/bottom-out points can be demonstrated quite well with just a set of switches, I think.  Not perfect, but certainly good enough for a basic idea.  That was my primary purpose anyway; to find out these sorts of things, to get a general idea of some of the properties of the switches.

Still though... I still may just get a Dvorak buckling spring keyboard from Unicomp due to its somewhat lower overall cost (plus the fact that it sounds like something I would like, or to at least like to try), but this is a good start IMO.  I will most definitely get a Cherry MX Blue at some point, and possibly try some way to try the Black and Red on real keyboards some day... but for now, I think I've gained most of the information I need to form a somewhat-accurate opinion to help with my future choices.  Cherry MX Brown is firmly out of my options, and my information on Clears is inconclusive.

I think it's clear by now that I'm looking more into this than what it may seem. :)

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (24-Feb-2013 08:38:43)
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@Ultra,

Wow!  I just wouldn't trust myself, I'd go for the stiffer springs if I felt them in isolation.  But they'd tire my hands if I actually had to use them.

I have a black Alps, and that's a stiff linear.  I fluctuate between really liking it, and finding it too noisy and lack lustre.  It takes some practice to be gentle and fast with it.

You might be able to try out Cherry Blacks in a shop,  I think some of the gaming keyboards have them.

I'd lap up a Unicomp if I lived in the states and could get them that cheaply.  In my mind I think I'd come to a similar conclusion though, get either Cherry Blues, or Cherry Reds.   I'll aim for both at some point.   Probably try and get a portable keyboard with Reds to take to work, and keep the blue at home.

I've a friend with a Filco (Blues) and a Das (Brown), and he's had a lot of time to compare the two, he was using the Das at work, but said that he actually prefers the Blues.

I've finally swapped out my laptop keyboard after having an accident with a cup of tea.  Turns out there are three manufacturers of Thinkpad keyboards, and they all differ slightly.  I had an Alps, that I found a bit stiff and lack lustre.  And I've just moved over to a Chicony.  Which is also a little stiff.  I'm not sure if I like it yet.  It's far noiser than the last.  They feel very different, which surprised me somewhat.   It was bad enough trying to choose which replacement to go for, I bit the bullet and opted for change.

I figure the casing can also have an effect, two keyboards with the same switches might be quite different.

Good luck with your purchase!

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Yep, I think Unicomp is the first route I'll be taking, actually. After all, I am used to heavier keys, so while I could probably get used to lighter ones easily, buckling springs would probably be the least jarring experience in a way.  I always liked being able to firmly rest my fingers on the home row with no chance of any keys going down.  I used to be able to do that better with some of the keyboards I've used in the past, back in the 1990s.  It seems like even with rubber domes, they keep trying to make the keys lighter.

Plus... my current keyboard seems to be bad enough that it is starting to kill my typing speed and accuracy. Some keys will press easier or harder than expected, keys will sometimes register double presses, sometimes I'll be holding down Shift and the letter following is still lower case.  None of these problems occurred before I started regularly hitting 40+ WPM in Dvorak.  Ironically, this didn't tend to happen when I typed on QWERTY either... the reason: My hands were all over the place and I tended to slam on the keys, just to make sure it struck.  With Dvorak, I no longer see a need to slam the keys, because pretty much all of the most important keys are within easy reach and very little movement is required.  Of course... it could also be all the typing and practice on the keyboard since switching to Dvorak, and the fact that time is finally catching up with it.

But still, at higher speeds in Dvorak, I find myself trying to type too fast, not pressing the keys far enough (ie. all the way) to actuate as I move on to the next key.  Happens quite frequently.  One other thing that also gets me with the current board is the feeling of the keys... I just can't get around it anymore; I press and it's like the key doesn't want to go down, so press just a tiny bit harder and it's bottomed out.  It's like there is no in between, no smoothness--either it's up or it's bottomed out.  Next key might go down easier, but once enough pressure is applied it just plummets to the membrane and plastic below.  I could imagine a full board of even the Cherry MX Blacks and Reds being a dream to type on compared to this thing.  They depress so smoothly.

It actually kind of sucks... so many potentially good switches, not enough resources to just go all-out from the start.  And I've read some more about Topre switches those things sound interesting, but damn!  I'm not so sure the insane price tag is worth it.

Good point on Cherry MX Black being used as a gaming switch and possibly on display for trial at some place that sells higher-quality electronics and gaming equipment... there's not too many such places around here, but maybe Best Buy is a possibility.  I could call them and see if they have any out on display for demonstration.

Last edited by UltraZelda64 (28-Feb-2013 03:20:18)
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UltraZelda64 said:

Cherry MX Blue: I really like this one... love the clickiness and this one's got some very strong tactility.  They really kick back.  Probably my favorite of the package, but it's not as loud as what I was expecting based on the videos.

Have you just clicked away at the switch without a keycap on whilst coming to that conclusion? I got one of those trial packs and was similarly surprised by the lack of extra volume on the blues, but then when i stuck caps on them the blue really did sound a notch louder. Still not tooooo obnoxiously loud, but it did make a difference. I notice a reasonable bit of sound whilst i'm typing on my browns, so I think that the blues would be very noticable in a full board being used properly. To try and improve the testing a little I managed to rig up a bit of lego to hold them side by side so it felt a bit more typey. Get some of those tall blocks that are at least 2x2 or 2xSomethingLong, and you can sit the switch in it quite nicely when it's upside down, a bit protruding down around the sides helps to hold em steady.

On the kinesis front, check out second hand ebay auctions. I got a ps/2 flavoured ergo board there a while back for a price that wasn't too bad relatively, and that was with shipping from the US to England which pretty much doubled the price. It's a lovely lovely thing :) as mentioned though, you will find that going back to a normal keyboard without the thumb clusters makes you realise how utterly abhorent the normal design is, so you'll need something for work and something for home!

Last edited by eviltobz (28-Feb-2013 19:12:49)
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eviltobz said:

Have you just clicked away at the switch without a keycap on whilst coming to that conclusion? I got one of those trial packs and was similarly surprised by the lack of extra volume on the blues, but then when i stuck caps on them the blue really did sound a notch louder. Still not tooooo obnoxiously loud, but it did make a difference. I notice a reasonable bit of sound whilst i'm typing on my browns, so I think that the blues would be very noticable in a full board being used properly. To try and improve the testing a little I managed to rig up a bit of lego to hold them side by side so it felt a bit more typey. Get some of those tall blocks that are at least 2x2 or 2xSomethingLong, and you can sit the switch in it quite nicely when it's upside down, a bit protruding down around the sides helps to hold em steady.

The very first thing I did just out of curiosity was see what the switch was like by just pressing the bare stem down with my fingers, but almost immediately I put the keycaps on and tried them the more "proper" way.  After all--no one types on bare keyswitches, that much is obvious, so it would be crazy to go by that.  It was louder somehow with the keycap on, which is how I actually tried them out and reached my opinions, of course.  But still not quite the level of volume I was expecting based on the videos.

For one thing, I think I had the volume up so it was louder than it would naturally be in reality (it's impossible to really know where it should be set at)... plus, no doubt one keyswitch vs. dozens of them on a single board being pressed quickly in at differing pressures across the board will sound much different in general.  I did take that into account though, and got what I wanted from the set... and it still turned out that Cherry MX Blue was the one I'd prefer for its clicks and tactile feedback.

I was trying to think of a way to prop the keyswitches up, but decided, really... I got what info I could get from the individual keyswitches; not much else can be gained without getting a board of each switch type for a "real" pressure/sensitivity test, so I mostly ended my experiment there.  Your idea of using Legos is a pretty good one though... I just have nothing like that around here, so that wouldn't be a possibility in my situation.

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There was a thread at Geekhack about removing click and clack from switches. I think that the best solution to clack was to put rubber rings (from a hardware store) on the stem, if your switch profile supports it. Those little black rings come in different sizes so you should be able to find some that fit your stems nicely. I think it could give a good typing feel too. Click is more tricky and usually involves opening and lubricating the switch; I don't think I'd do that with most switches.

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I was wondering if rubber thimbles on the fingers might help on the bottoming out front.  Though that won't kill the noise quite like the rubber Os.

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Mechanical keyboard thread? Well, I have to contribute. Since you can get many opinions on switches everywhere else, I'll be short.

Springs/Tactiles: Model M Springs > Unicomp Springs > Cherry Blues/Greens > Alps Blues/Whites
Rubber Dome: Topre 45g > Topre 55g

th_DSC01362.jpg

This is a tenkeyless Topre Realforce. If you have the money, and like keys that you don't have to bottom out, the Topre 45gram switches are the best in my opinion. They last you more than their price invested in generic keyboards, and the smooth action is essentially silent once you learn to type lightly without bottoming out (and no louder than the average keyboard when you don't.)

The one downside to Topres is the keycaps aren't all the same size. The bottom row keycaps are slightly more elevated, so converting the keyboard to Colemak means your N key will sit a little taller than the other home row keys. You don't really notice it in the picture, and franky I don't notice it when typing on it either.

Second choice would be Cherry Black switches since they're smooth and easy to adjust to (reds are too light in comparison and bottom out much easier). I would have to check my cherry keyboard again, but I believe the Leopold cherry keycaps are all the same size, making them ideal for Colemak conversion.

Last edited by Lite (22-Jun-2013 01:59:35)
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I have tried Topre 45g, it's similar to brown but quieter. I prefer Cherry brown switch since it's cheaper. When I have plenty of money, perhaps I will get a Topre for a change.

Last edited by Tony_VN (22-Jun-2013 04:34:51)
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The Unicomp springs are supposed to be about the same as the Model M ones, aren't they? So what's wrong with them, I wonder?

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DreymaR said:

The Unicomp springs are supposed to be about the same as the Model M ones, aren't they?

(sorry late reply) I don't know about others' experiences, but the Unicomp I owned wasn't as stiff as the Models M's. I work in a computer store and found these things laying around so no telling what they've previously lived through. Regardless, the switches were in great shape and the difference was small. It all comes down to preference.

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I grabbed a Rosewill RK-9000RE (red switches) as my first trial board since it was on discount, and since I was curious about whether I could make minimal-resistance typing work.  Jury's still out on that last bit; my typing is 10-20wpm slower, especially when I'm actively trying not to bottom out, and I miss quite a few letters, especially the same-key bigrams (despite the reds' oft-touted superior double-tapping).  The actual process of typing is very light, though; occasionally, I can look up and not believe the complex sentences that'd just emerged from barely a touch of my fingers.  With luck, I'll eventually be able to consistently hit that sweet spot where the keys are only very lightly actuated.

On the plus side, reds work very well with the common pageup/pagedown navigation in vimperator, zathura, etc. Even browns didn't feel quite as smooth when rapidly browsing.  The original laptop keyboard, meanwhile, now feels like I'm slamming the bottom each time.

My regret is that reds don't seem as "fun" compared to the blues; my first mechanical board just feels like "serious business", having to watch for typing errors and bottming out, rather than the clicks and clackity clack-clack I'd imagined.  If I could remake the choice now, I would probably be irresponsible and go for those instead, especially since this particular board isn't really in a position to disturb anyone.

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