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    Neo - Colemak

    • Started by vaskozl
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    • From: Malmö, Sweden
    • Registered: 10-Sep-2012
    • Posts: 122

    The day before yesterday was the first time I gave the Neo layout a look. After ending up on the german page I was looking at the not so impressive germanized layout that was presented to me. What stunned me, however, was that there were 6 additionaly layers of keys. If you don't know what I'm talking about, have a look at it here .

    It not only beheld a special programmer layer like the ones devised by SpeedMorph and Tomlu, but it also had an navigation layer similar to that of DreymaR. Furthermore it contained 2 layers dedicated to math-greek symbols (which I actually need to use quite often). Additionaly, the different layers also posses different numpad keys, allowing you to produce unnimaginable things.



    layer 3 layer 4


    It has a fully functional numpad on the letter rows and the symbols seem to be reasonably well placed. I will probably change some of them, but I really like it as is.


    I also thought that the modifiers were very well placed. It has 2 of each modifier, meaning your are not limited to one hand. I've currently swapped layer 1 and 2 with respecitve  colemak counterpart and am trying Neo's extended layers out. I don't think I'll really stick to them, but I thought I should share my impressions, so that you can reply with yours.

    What do you think about it. Is it well thought out? What would you do to improve it?

    Last edited by vaskozl (21-Apr-2013 15:01:19)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    It's a lot, for sure. :)

    I don't like the letter layout intuitively. I don't type German myself, and it might be good for that. Even so, most German typers will use English too these days and you don't want to learn two layouts. I use Colemak for Norwegian even though it's not optimized for the language; there's that old topic showing that Colemak is actually quite good for most major latin-script languages at least!

    For Greek letters (beyond α-δ) I use a switch to a phonetic Greek layout. If you type single letters a lot you can set a temp layout switch key in Linux at least; if you type words you can make a toggle switch. That was is better I feel, and also lets you get other scripts similarly.

    A NumPad layer is a good idea, as is easy bracket access if you code a lot. I have a NumPad in my Linux mappings (using Caps+AltGr) but not the PKL ones because PKL doesn't support more than one Extend layer out of the box. Even so, I haven't used it much in Linux either. Things can actually get too complex and chording too many modifiers gets less than charming at a point. ;)

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Apr-2013 12:23:41)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Malmö, Sweden
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    DreymaR said:

    It's a lot, for sure. :)

    I don't like the letter layout intuitively. I don't type German myself, and it might be good for that. Even so, most German typers will use English too these days and you don't want to learn two layouts. I use Colemak for Norwegian even though it's not optimized for the language; there's that old topic showing that Colemak is actually quite good for most major latin-script languages at least!

    I was expecting you to reply DreymaR! :) I don't really like the letter arangment either, that's why I have switched them with colemak, but extended layers look really good. I like the fact they have the modifiers for layer three neatly placed on both the wright and left side. Also the make great use of the <LSGT> key as the navigiation layer, which I was already doing with your exended layer.

    Of course you can have a seperate layout with greek, but if you need the more common ones on your layout, and you have room for the others, why not put them there anyway? Often when you are typing math equations you have to use the math symbols with combinations of the greek characters which math (and therefore Science) loves so much, so for single characters now and then it is much more efficient than switching the whole layout. Ofcourse, if you actually want to type greek it would be more beneficial to switch to a full blown out greek layout.

    I've been wondering DreymaR, since you ditched backspace in place of the extended layer key, what have you been using as your backspace? The original qwerty one, or the one on the extended layer?

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    I usually backspace with the Extend one! I press Caps with the left pinky then O with the right pinky.

    This means that the total stretch to backspace is the same as when using Caps alone; the only additional hassle is the chording with my right pinky which is really simple I think and doesn't really feel like extra effort. Another benefit is that the Del key to delete forward is directly above (Caps+;), and I can also delete words (Ctrl+BS) with Caps+T+O.

    To each their own, of course: I won't touch the <LSGT> key as I need it for my Ø. This is why I advocate modularity, so that users can choose each component of their typing experience separately from the others. In that context, using a separate Greek (phonetic) layout with a temporary or toggling modifier of your choice is just as powerful as and more flexible than using a Greek layer with a predefined modifier in your main layout. If I needed Hebrew or Cyrillic script instead of the Greek one for that modifier, it'd be only a layout choice away instead of a whole remapping. And if I wanted to use another modifier, likewise.

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Apr-2013 20:29:48)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    • From: Malmö, Sweden
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    Yes, totally. I think I'll end up leaving capslock as my backspace and use altgr/<LSGT> for any navigation layer I would like to use.

    You were using Ubuntu right? Do you have problems using the extended layer arrows with the dash? For me the cursor jumps back to the insert box as soon as I lift the key, disabling me from using the arrows on the extened layer. Did you somehow get around that?

    Last edited by vaskozl (22-Apr-2013 17:17:20)

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    I haven't used the Dash a lot, nice as it is, since my home computer is so slow it grinds to a screeching halt every time I hit the Super key.

    But yes, I can confirm your problem. And no, I don't have an answer to it. Ah well, you'll have to use the real arrow keys for the Dash then it seems.

    We're really stretching the limits of what XKB was made to do with the Big Bag. I haven't found a way to generate on-the-fly modifiers that work in all applications (the AST keys should've been Alt/Shift/Ctrl with Caps, you know). In some cases some of them work (the Alt seems fine mostly), but I really miss pressing Caps+S+T+N to select the previous word for instance.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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