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    From QWERTY to Dvorak to Colemak... back to QWERTY

    • Started by meken
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    • Registered: 05-Jul-2013
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    I set out to learn Dvorak three weeks ago. My initial impressions were really positive... but as my WPM started to increse, I started to feel more and more pain in my right hand. So much that I literally could not do anything with it for three days. I attribute it to Dvorak's lopsided favoitism of the right hand, the fact that I was not ``floating" my hands as much as I was with QWERTY (locking them on the home row and stretching for other keys), and a heavy increase of right pinky use.

    So next up was Colemak. Colemak was easier on my right hand initially, but when my WPM started to increase, my right hand pain came back. I really started noticing it when I was using vim (heavy use of : (colon), QWERTY YUHN keys for navigation, and Colemak O (oh)).

    Anyway, the conclusion I have come to is that since QWERTY is so left-handed lopsided, my right hand simply has been unable to bear the increase in its share of typing. Even though Colemak only favors the right hand by 6%, coming from QWERTY's favoritism of the left hand by 15% has just been too much.

    So what's a guy to do? I never had pain while typing with QWERTY (been touch typing extensively for 4 years) and have experienced tremendous amounts of pain since switching to Dvorak and Colemak. This whole experience has been extremely discouraging to say the least. The most frustrating part has been not finding a single post of someone having a lot of pain with the right hand.

    Has anyone experienced something similar and what did you do? It seems like a no-brainer to go back to QWERTY at this point, as sad as that sounds.


    Some info about me: I'm naturally right handed and have been using the mouse with my left hand for the past two weeks in an attempt to limit my right hand usage.

    Last edited by meken (05-Jul-2013 07:08:59)
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    One option is a mirrored colemak layout.  Sample pic from Dreymar's sig:

    Cmk-ISO-MirrorOn-Angle_90d-FingerShui.png

    Before taking such a radical step, however, I would suggest reexamining your typing very carefully.  What alarms me the most is:

    meken said:

    I was not ``floating" my hands as much as I was with QWERTY (locking them on the home row and stretching for other keys)

    Floating is just as important in colemak/dvorak as in qwerty.  While going for keys, you should be (for lack of better word) floating all your fingers along with the active ones, in the manner that makes you most comfortable.  Keeping certain fingers "locked" is just a recipe for strain.

    Even in the "home row" position, the middle and ring finger should be floated somewhere between the home and top row - they simply don't rest naturally in a single line.

    meken said:

    heavy use of : (colon)

    Try hitting ;: with your ring finger (while floating, of course).  I think I would go crazy if I had to hit it with my pinkie.

    My wide layout (see AltGr pic below) may have also helped with pinkie strain, by moving /? from the pinkie to the very strong index, and reducing the distance to Return, at the (at least in my experience) relatively minor cost of moving '" to top row.


    For vim, some of us prefer a colemak.vim/colemak-evil-type configuration, which makes the keys a bit more geometrically-oriented.  Others still prefer the default layout for its mnemonicness (possibly just remapping the direction keys, or else using modifiers to add other direction keys - see Dreymar's extend mappings (in his sig), my AltGr layout for examples).

    Last edited by lalop (05-Jul-2013 10:18:30)
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    Switching experience is a hellish one to say the least. If you go straight from Qwerty to Colemak, it's tough enough. Moving the workload from left hand to right hand also affects you.

    But since you already switch to Dvorak for 3 weeks, then switch to Colemak again, so the confusion is twice or triple as much. The switching experience is too much for you mortals to bear. Hells have come to you.

    Your fingers merely express your frustration. Hopefully they will not run away from you and/or become numb.

    Come back to switch at later time if you like.

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    If you check my initial posts, you'll see me moaning about the same thing.  I had days where I almost gave up entirely, and experienced loads of pain even after months.  One  thing I must add is that I already had computer related injuries, and that's why I eeked out an alternative layout in the first place.  I was new to touch typing and boy did I feel it.  Even now I'm not entirely comfortable with touch typing;  I have good days and bad days.

    You've pretty much identified the problem.

    Qwerty is very left hand orientated, as such, you're not used to typing with the right.   I'd never used my pinky and barely used my right ring finger.  When you start out with Dvorak, it suddenly feels like a complete over burden on the right hand, because you have barely used it previously!

    I'll guess that the way you naturally settle your hands with Qwerty is to rest your right fingers more on the U,I and O keys.  Changing to sit them on the home row, feels very strange also.  The standard keyboard makes this doubly irritating, and can also strain he wrists.  I'm not sure how you hold your fingers, do you curl them or type with them more extended?   I think you need to have a good curl on them to settle them on the home row.  You might never have had to do so under Qwerty.

    When you are starting out you can't relax your hands, you are very conscious of where to place your fingers and that can be straining as well, especially if you are stretching to the keys rather than floating.  Floating comes more easily when you gain confidence and practice with typing.

    I'm tempted to say that you'll get used to it, if you are prepared to ride the storm. For me though I'd give my right pinky up for typing comfort, so if you already have that, and a reasonable WPM; I don't know if I'd bother rocking the boat.

    I went from a hunt and pecker with neck and should problems (no hand or finger issues), to a touch typist with some finger and wrist strain (less neck issues.)  I can type more freely than in the past, so that's a positive gain - I actually couldn't use the computer at all for a time, and laptop use hunting and pecking Qwerty (say tech support for family and friends) can soon bring back the onset of pain.

    I actually quite enjoy typing with my right pinky, but I do wonder if it still strains me further up the arm, or means that I can't straighten out my wrist more freely.  Perhaps I'd be more comfortable using my stronger fingers.  It's so hard to ever know, as the investment in learning another layout is so high that you don't get to compare these things.

    If you want to lessen the impact, you could try a modified Qwerty layout,  something like Minimak (4), or you could could try the Tarmak route to Colemak.  The Minimak (4) looks like a clever hack to me.  If you are a good Qwerty touch typist, then it seems a shame to loose some of those benefits.   I settled on Dvorak as I'd not learnt to touch type Qwerty previously.  Colemak is designed in part as an evolution from Qwerty (I believe it's heavily inspired by Dvorak.)  If you don't like homerow typing, and don't feel you ever will, the Minimak (4) looks like a good choice.

    I might add that I've had no real experience touch typing Qwerty or using Minimak!

    Last edited by pinkyache (05-Jul-2013 09:46:37)

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    I have lots of very bad pain issues with my right hand / arm from years of over mouse use, and I find colemak no worse for my right hand than qwerty was. I did have additional pain in the beginning, but I think it was due to being a bad typist again.

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    The tarmak transitioning itself would not help very much with OP's problem, because the changes in finger usage are not very gradual:

    5YjBu2u.png

    (Tarmak 2 omitted since it doesn't change anything on the right hand.  The pinkie and ring stats would look slightly more balanced if OP uses ring finger to hit qwerty-P.  Here are the tarmaks in case you'd like to generate your own KLA stats.)

    As you can see, most changes go even higher than the final colemak!  Thus, if OP finds he can't get used to colemak despite ergonomic/wideness/persistence advice, I would suggest either:

    1. Pause at tarmak 2, which only affects the strong middle finger, confers decent advantages, and leaves the door open for a complete transition to colemak.

    2. Go for minimak.  Probably easier to get used to and confers slightly better advantages than tarmak 2, but ultimately ends up not as good as colemak.

    Due to being very conservative to qwerty, and mainly switching keys that are attributed to the same finger, minimak ends up with a very flat usage graph, matching tarmak 2 (at least on the relevant right-hand side):

    bqbPWmC.png

    (Minimak KLA exports found here.)

    Since finger usage appears similar, the choice is then whether to leave open the possibility of colemak in return for some slightly lower stats.  Personally (I guess, unsurprisingly), I'd take that possibility.

    Last edited by lalop (05-Jul-2013 21:28:49)
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    I noticed today that I have some trouble with my right wrist. Although recently switching to colemak as well, I hope their not related. I have been painting for 5 hrs a day which i normally don't, and I just started floating as well. Being lazy and putting my hands flat was costing me speed, and isn't too good for your hands either I guess. Also not used to typing a lot and am now, and don't have a desk so have to put my laptop on my legs. Any change it might be related to any of this?

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    If you have pains, don't switch layouts too forcefully. Tarmak might be a good choice, but more important is the general ergonomics.

    Also, maybe a Wide ergonomic mod could help. It takes load off the right pinky (and the thumb if you use AltGr mappings), separates the shoulders better and helps you keep the right wrist straighter. Wide/Angle mods can be learnt without physical strain in my experience.

    Last edited by DreymaR (30-Jul-2013 09:28:14)

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    Just an update:

    Thanks to everyone for your helpful and thoughtful suggestions. For now, I've gone back to QWERTY and it has felt incredible. My right hand is no longer sore, my left hand is back to being worked out, and I have my vim H J K L keys back.

    If anything, I think I am going to to design a layout in the future for those who prefer/need a left-handed dominant layout like myself.

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    You could reflect upon an existing layout, or even pick a left sided one hand layout ;)

    Has anyone tried a left hander?

    Dvorak left handed layout diagram

    Last edited by pinkyache (31-Jul-2013 01:07:17)

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    meken said:

    Just an update:

    Thanks to everyone for your helpful and thoughtful suggestions. For now, I've gone back to QWERTY and it has felt incredible. My right hand is no longer sore, my left hand is back to being worked out, and I have my vim H J K L keys back.

    If anything, I think I am going to to design a layout in the future for those who prefer/need a left-handed dominant layout like myself.

    Try this:
    qwupgjlfy;[]\
    asetdhnrio’
    zxcvbkm,./

    This layout heavily uses the left hand, according to patojk analyzer.
    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

    This layout even has shorter finger travel than Colemak with some texts, and it has common QWAHZXCVBM keys with Qwerty, as Colemak does.

    It has additional PGKNOTJLY; keys in common with Colemak too, so if you already tried Colemak, it would be faster to switch to this left-hand-favored layout.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (31-Jul-2013 04:04:58)
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    I have been learning colemak for 50 days now and I do find that the 'OU' combo does get marginally stressful on the right hand after time especially when combined with 'Y' in words like "you", "out", "young" but words like "would" and "could" do roll very nicely however.

    Last edited by Twoddle (31-Jul-2013 13:25:29)
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    'You' may be a bit of a twister, especially early on. Keeping the wrist straight and resting the middle and ring fingers between the home and upper row helps a bit. Other than that, some combos require a little strength and independence – I know of typing champions that advocate piano playing to strengthen the fingers.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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