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    Colemak vs Norman

    • Started by Buddybenj
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    • Registered: 10-Jan-2014
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    I have been interested in switching layouts for a while and I have narrowed down my choices to Norman and Colemak. Has any one tried both of these layouts? I use a mechanical keyboard with Cherry MX Browns if that matters.

    The features I want (in order from most important to kind of important) are:

    -Comfort, this includes the most ergonomic and relaxing and preventing finger strain.

    -Speed, how fast I will be able to type.

    -Productivity, one of the reasons I chose these layouts is because of their Ctrl+ZXCV keys (I need to be able to get stuff done!).

    -Learning Speed


    Thank you,
    Benjamin

    P.S. Norman layout website: https://normanlayout.info/

    Last edited by Buddybenj (10-Jan-2014 02:47:17)
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    davkol said:

    Welcome.

    My advice is (1) abandon the idea that shortcuts matter¹, they don't in the long run; (2) consider, what kind of movements is natural for you: hand alternation? rolls? in which direction? Try to type QWERTY equivalents for common trigraphs in those layouts. For example, Colemak's "rst" would be "sdf" on QWERTY, Colemak's "ion" translates to "l;n" on QWERTY, "the" is sort of equivalent to "fhk" etc. Find out, what feels good... or awkward OTOH to you.

    It's not like any of those layouts is objectively better than the others. Actually, it is, but only in a specific *model*, depending on variables such as hand alternation, same-finger ratio and you name it. Everybody has different preferences.

    ¹ You'll have to relearn most of them, e.g. those involving O/N/P, S on Colemak etc. You can dance around the issue by using macros anyway; modern desktop OS' recognize Cut/Copy/Paste/whatever keys/codes as well.


    I tried some of them. The fhk (the) feels great and I feel like I could be comfortable doing that all day. The l;n (ion) feels pretty good, but the pinky kind of feels a little awkward in that scenario (although my pinky is not always bad). The sdf (rst) doesn't feel perfect (it's not terrible however), although I can do it fast I feel like my accuracy is not the best when doing that particular roll. However I have not been touch typing forever and small annoyances like these I feel like I could get over by doing a few typing tests. My touch typing pet peeves (I shouldn't say pet peeves, they are very minor annoyances) are not permanent as I have not been touch typing for long.

    I just want something that is more practical and over all a better layout than QWERTY.

    Thanks,
    Benjamin

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    All of the alternatives are better than Qwerty. They are quite the same in terms of efficiency (less than 1% difference on different texts), so any of them will be all right.

    You can go to patojk keyboard layout analyzer site, load Colemak or Dvorak, Norman, Arensito etc then shuffle some keys to get new layout quite easily. You can get thousands of keyboard layout that way without inventing anything new.

    You only have to follow core principles:

    ARSTDHNEIO must be at the home row.
    E and T on different hand to alleviate workload.
    QZJ; must be at the corner or at the Y-qwerty position.
    ZXCV should be fixed. Ideally QWAHBM should be fixed too. The more the better.

    All these keyboard layouts are quite the same, you're looking through a kaleidoscope and may think what you are looking at are unique and better than the rest.

    Why reinventing the wheel again and again?

    Last edited by Tony_VN (10-Jan-2014 03:32:06)
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    Tony you have to not just look at numbers, they are similar but there overall feel is very different so I was asking which one feels better IYO. So let's focus on my top points on my list: which layout is faster (to type not learn), most importantly which one feels the best (comfort)? Which has more awkward hand movements etc.? I have already said on the post what movements feel best for me so all I need is some one is knows about or has tried the Norman layout.

    Thanks,
    Benjamin

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    They are quite the same, and I mean that they are the same in term of speed (no layout is faster than any other, your speed depends on YOU) as well as comfort (no layout is more comfortable than any other). Just different feel and different key combos you have to master.

    So you can choose any of them. Once having chosen, ignore the rest.

    Dvorak is more popular but community support is almost non-existent. Colemak is preferred because its helpful and ever expanding community, as in this forum.

    For hotkeys' aspect, Colemak has decided advantages over Dvorak when keeping ZXCVQAHBM in their old places. Norman is keeping ZXCVQW too, but it is new and its forum is quite deserted, so no community support.

    As a Colemak user, I am only 98.560234% satisfied with it, but who cares? The switching process is quite tough to go over it again to get less than 1% of efficiency.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (10-Jan-2014 08:11:17)
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    Colemak is, far as I know, unbeaten when it comes to shortcuts, surpassing even QWERTY.  That's mattered less to me since learning and creating vim-like configs, but is still useful when those are unavailable.

    Norman's big disadvantage is its very high same finger ratio.  On the blog, he suggests this is by design:

    the Norman right index and middle fingers are overloaded compared to the other modern layouts which negated any of the improvement the other layouts strived for. Norman tries to assign common characters to strong fingers and I think those are my two most agile, strong fingers.

    Same finger, however, is a very important metric (definitely in speed, arguably in comfort), so I'm not sure that's worth it.


    To address the rest of your list:

    Comfort: As davkol points out, what people are comfortable with can vary.  Some people like rolls (which colemak has a lot of) more than hand alternation (which colemak has little of) and vice versa.  Unfortunately, there haven't been serious medical studies like "rate of RSI by layout" (you can blame QWERTY's dominance; there'd be little point in finding out regardless of results), so those kinds of questions can't be definitively answered.

    Learning speed: if you're a QWERTY touchtypist, tarmak is probably the best transition method, period.

    Last edited by lalop (10-Jan-2014 14:25:18)
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    So since the T and E keys are not on different hands will that be annoying or not? Also as I said rolls are not the best for me. What physical traits does Colemak have and what traits does Norman have?

    Also lalop thank you, however I know that they are opinion based for which layout you like better. I was just wondering if any one has tried both and has some opinions about both, however it appears that is not the case.

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    I doubt anyone here has actually tried both.

    What do you mean by "physical traits"? I thought Norman characterized his layout quite well on his blog: high emphasis on the index and middle finger, scoring quite well on workman's difficulty model (which I don't completely buy due to finding that I had no real difficulty hitting the middle-home row keys, but you should decide for yourself).

    By contrast, colemak wasn't designed with workman's model in mind, optimizing instead for home and top row, distance, and same finger. It feels interesting but it's hard to describe; I would convert some text from colemak-> qwerty to get an idea.

    If you don't like rolls, what exactly do you like? Hand alternation is a bit tough to get working with shortcuts, since it more or less requires that the vowels be on one side, but you trade off some of colemak's shortcuts and some same finger for some increased alternation with layouts like carpalx's.

    Last edited by lalop (11-Jan-2014 12:56:03)
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    There is no one who "try" Colemak and Norman.

    Keyboard layout is not a car or a shoe. It's impossible to "try" a layout since switching process is quite tough, and it takes at least 6 months to type fluently in any layout. I think "try" is not the right word, "commit" or "work" would be more suitable words. You have to go all the way with a layout, work hard at increasing accuracy, type it full time, do typing exercises daily.

    With so much investment of time and effort, once converted to Colemak, most people will stick with Colemak for life and ignore the rest.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (11-Jan-2014 12:57:16)
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    Just found UltraZelda's impressions on Norman and Colemak.

    Last edited by lalop (11-Jan-2014 13:22:52)
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    If Norman has higher same-finger "by design", then down the drain with it say I. Not a good idea! Cramps you up.

    Colemak seems to me to be very well-rounded. There's a plethora of layouts that try to be better in some respect, but it seems that Colemak does very well on the whole and that's probably good enough for you too. Norman is bound to be a higher-risk venture in that respect, with less people using and trying it, less support etc.

    In fact, all I see is entrepreneurs with some idea of a better layout, riding their horse as far as it'll take them, but in hindsight sacrificing something more important (to me at least). Improving on Dvorak and Colemak overall takes a very insightful and well-balanced approach, and honestly I haven't seen that many of those. If you want to move a lot of keys and sacrifice shortcuts, Dvorak is probably plenty good for that. If you value the don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broken approach to optimization, then Colemak is spot on. There's also the preference between higher hand alternation (Dvorak) or more rolls (Colemak) – that may be an individual choice for the most part.

    Check out my sig topics for the kind of support you can get from just *one* (granted, one zany) member of the great and enthusiastic Colemak community! My impression is that community support for Colemak is even better than for Dvorak these days, although Dvorak has better MS Windows support for instance (unless you use PKL – which I do!).

    Last edited by DreymaR (12-Jan-2014 12:40:48)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Alright, you've sucked me in :P. I'll try Colemak see if it feels nice.

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