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    Want to learn a new layout for general typing, programming, and gaming

    • Started by osum4est
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    • Registered: 15-Jul-2014
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    Hello! I am 16 years old and have been using QWERTY for about 6 years or so. My speed now is 70 wpm, and I can tell typing on QWERTY feels very clunky and my fingers are everywhere. I also make too many mistakes and gets quite annoying. I've been looking at different keyboard layouts and I would like to learn a new one. Hopefully doing this will improve my wpm and accuracy.

    As I've been researching I have come to conclusion that Colemak is the best for general typing and fairly easy to learn compared to Dvorak. I also do programming and plan to become a programmer when I grow up. If I were to just program and nothing else I'd do programmers dvorak but I don't like the idea of relearning everything and I'd like to learn Colemak.

    To fix this I read a little about using an AltGr layout on top of Colemak. I'm not sure, though, of these things: Is the AltGr key the right Alt key? Which finger do I press it with? Would it be a good idea to learn it on top of Colemak? And finally, if I were to use it, which layout is best for programming?

    Finally, I do a lot of PC gaming so would I have to rebind the controls in every game I play? Ex. WASD to WARS and the Q, R, C, F, T, and G keys are all pretty common controls. Will the games automatically account for this and adjust or would I have to manually change them/switch back to QWERTY for gaming?

    Thank you for your help!

    Edit: what if I used left shift for uppercase and right shift for a different layout for programming keys? Or is that just a bad idea?

    Last edited by osum4est (15-Jul-2014 01:26:01)
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    i think the programming versions of the various layouts just invert the no. row so the symbols can be typed without the shift key, but the no.s require it..

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    Making numbers shifted is also potentially problematic for vim users, though I suppose it depends on how much you use them.  Personally, I use the low numbers quite a lot.

    I think, by definition, the important feature of AltGr is that it's a modifier (like shift), giving additional layer(s) when you press it.  On some layouts, right alt is just alt, while on others, it's AltGr. 

    Other keys can also be used to trigger the additional layer(s).  DreymaR's Extend layer uses Caps, for instance.

    I would only worry about extra layers after learning Colemak; piling on too much at once makes learning stuff harder.  Speaking of that, be sure to take a look at Tarmak.

    osum4est said:

    Edit: what if I used left shift for uppercase and right shift for a different layout for programming keys? Or is that just a bad idea?

    I've been testing remapping AltGr to right shift since I rarely use the latter.  However, many others would (I suspect) consider not using both shifts a bad habit.

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    Thanks for the information. Yeah, I will definitely learn colemak before I try to add a layer. Currently, I'm using keybr.com to learn it. So do you know the best layout for a programming keys set? Also a bit unrelated but is there a way to make my caps lock key back space using pkl? I don't want to go into the registry and change it quite yet.

    Edit: So far I'm having a pretty hard time with I, coming from QWERTY. My middle finger is used to pressing I!

    Last edited by osum4est (15-Jul-2014 20:41:00)
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    It depends a lot on your selection of symbols and where you place your modifier.  For example, keys that are held down (e.g. arrows, backspace) should probably go on the opposite hand to the modifier.

    Sorry, I don't know much about windows.  But I'd first strongly consider making caps into a modifier (whether Ctrl or AltGr-like), as it's one of the easier candidates to reach.

    Last edited by lalop (16-Jul-2014 02:56:25)
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    Yeah caps lock seems like it would be quite nice. Still have to see if I'd rather use it as backspace though

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    So my main two questions are: Which AltGr/Caps Lock layout would be the best for programming? And what do I have to do to make gaming work with colemak?

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    If you're a one-keyboard man that's an excellent option!

    My solution is more ghetto as it doesn't need any special hardware and works on any old keyboard you come across including laptops (which I use a lot). That's part of what I like about it, I guess. But those boards Davkol suggests certainly are marvelous!

    Another fun option would be a plug-between USB controller as discussed over at GeekHack. If I had one of those I could be typing Colemak with Extend mappings even on my PlayStation.

    Last edited by DreymaR (21-Jul-2014 11:32:39)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Sorry I came late to the party guys. Life... don't talk to me about life.


    Ok, first off: ultimately davkol is correct. Nothing beats a customizable hardware implementation that lets you switch between layouts AND has support for multilayer.

    For cost effectiveness and portability: Hardware Remapper.

    For the best little split desk keyboard money can't buy: Ergodox. (Small, split keyboards, with thumbkeys makes this an awesome keyboard, and I've seen some truly amazing implementations. Downside: split keyboards make lap typing difficult, and, y'know, DIY. Lap typing is more ergonomic than desk typing; but increased mousing work means it may not be more ergonomic for general computing.)

    For the best lap typing:
    Keyboard Pants
    Your mileage may vary. ...also, don't ask about the touchpad.


    For a gaming and general office friendly layout, I've been exploring this myself, with help from the MTGAP "Keyboard Layout Project" analysis tool. I posted some examples in my Improve Punctuation thread, before finding this one. I chose to put W-ASD on the Qwerty W-AS_F keys as the most reasonable compromise, but I can post others if you are interested.  (NOTE: I have not messed around with the programming aspect as editing controls and special characters are best left to other layers. Or, y'know, VIM. Likewise, many programming functions are best let to dedicated editors with language specific autocomplete, autoexpand, etc... or VIM.)


    EDIT: I was trying to avoid being tacky and simply reposting something I'd written in another thread. In hindsight, if that thread is my own, redirecting people to that thread is probably even more distasteful. So, lesser of two evils:

    W-ASeD: Colemakian + Mod.Punctuation Fix (alpha)
    q  W  f  r  y    j  l  p  u  /
    A  S  e  D  g    h  N  T  I  O  ;
    x  c  z  v  b    k  m  '  .  ,
    
    
    W-ASeD Optimized around Mod. Punctuation Fix (alpha)
    q  W  f  r  y    b  m  u  p  /
    A  S  e  D  g    l  N  I  T  O  ;
    x  v  z  c  j    k  h  '  .  ,
    
    W-ASDe Optimized around Mod. Punctuation Fix (pre-alpha)
    q  W  r  f  y    k  g  h  p  /
    A  S  D  E  u    l  T  O  N  I  ;
    x  v  z  c  j    b  m  '  .  ,

    Layouts based on most gaming and shortcut keys being Left of the 5th column. Also edited so ZXCV stays on the bottom, if not in order. Punctuation block remains in place, but is optimized with ShiftPairs locked together, for those who like to move keycaps. I also ran W-ASD on:
       E-SDF: Good stats, but puts E on L.Pinkie
       R-DFG: Even better stats, but uncomfortable reach for Shift/Ctrl/Tab when gaming
       E-A_DF: Awkward if you try to game with L.Ring on A. Might be good with Pinkie on A. Hope you don't Strafe Left often.
       AWD-S on WER-D: Just plain awful layouts.

    I did not try WD-AS... maybe I should.


    THE MOST PRACTICAL WINDOWS/MAC SOLUTION
       Tenkeyless Keyboard
    overreach_of_comfort_zone_caused_by_asymmetrical_keyboard_300x126.gif
          - Reduce keyboard to mouse distance, eliminate over-reach. Change layout to whatever you want, because it won't matter when you have a-

       Programmable Gameboard/Keypad
    g13-gaming-gameboard-images.png
          - The core item in this solution. These devices are detected as different interface type from the keyboard, and as such, the settings do not overlap. Example here is the Logitech G13. Has 3 toggled layers called 'Modes'. Settings saved under 'profiles' for different applications. Up to 5 profiles can be saved directly into the device's memory. Set the 'default' profile Mode 1 to Qwerty for gaming, Mode 2 to numberpad, Mode 3 to standard shortcuts. The 4th Mode button is a quick Macro Record key. You really won't understand how useful one of these can be until you have one. (Logitech does not provide Linux drivers, but with the ability to store profiles on board, this should not be a problem as long as you have access to a Windows computer. Razer, the other main manufacturer of Gaming Keypads, does not provide Linux drivers either. Not sure how that one would work out.)

    Bonus
       Programmable MMO-style Gaming Mouse
    g600-gaming-mouse-images.png
          - Put standard shortcuts on the programmable buttons, never use keyboard shortcuts or fiddly mouse gesture apps again. Probably even better for productivity than gaming. Unless your 'gaming' is EVE Online. Razer offers a Left-Handed version.


    EDIT: To be fair, the competition:

    Razer Orbweaver/Tartarus

    razer-orbweaver-gallery-06.png
    razer-tartarus-gallery-2-v2.png
    The Orbweaver is the newer, more upscale of the two models. Both are smaller, and more ergonomic than the G13; the Orbweaver being somewhat unique having adjustable 'hand, thumb, and palm rest modules'. No screen (Logitech uses screen for various in game and out of game apps, such as System Performance Monitor, RSS Reader, POP3 Monitor, Clock and profile switching.). Mechanical keyswitches in the Orbweaver. Tartarus and G13 use membrane. Razer profile manager is cloud based, requires an account with valid e-mail address and wants to be online all the time (optional offline mode). The G13's manager isn't, but counters by allowing up to 5 profiles to be stored directly on the device, so you can still take it with you.

    Orbweaver and Tartarus do not have 'modes' and have fewer finger keys than the G13; 20 and 16 respectively to the G13's 22. The thumbpad is not an analog joystick like the G13 (can be set as 4-way d-pad, plus down click), but a 8-way d-pad. Also unlike the G13, the thumbpads 8 directions can act as a modifier keys, allowing a whopping 160 or 128 (respectively) programmable commands, all right under your fingertips. Compare to the G13's 87 (22 finger keys, 2 Thumb Keys, 5-way d-pad, 3 modes).

    Current Amazon Prices (USD): Orbweaver $93, Tartarus $76, G13 $56.

    EDIT: Turns out Razer offers a Left-Handed MMO Mouse. Corrected entry.

    Last edited by cevgar (02-Oct-2014 14:04:29)
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    • Registered: 28-Dec-2013
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    I stand by the conclusion that colemak is a great layout as dvorak is,
    but colemak prefering bigrams > hand alteration has a worse, worst
    case scenario then dvorak, were a bunch of bigrams end up on the same
    hand, and you end up typing a entire word on the same hand.
    dvorak got it right hand alteration is > then bigrams though
    The physical action of what is more efficient is far more important
    then any perceived limitation in left, right brained interaction
    in amberdexterous typing, your brain will wire for it as you go.
    both are important, dvorak got it wrong with the position of the "F" and probable the "U" and some
    say the "L" key.
    colemak doesn't have any keys in a placed in what I can say is a straight up mistake,
    and looking at the statistics which keys are place where seems mathmatically correct.
    Colemak does have entire words I cannot type more than 1/4 times correctly though because
    they end up grinding a single hand between inverse placement bigrams that the
    hand does not naturally want to do.
    Both layouts are absolutely better the QWERTY.

    Can we apply computer statistal generation to a new style of dvorak layout,
    that completely ignores qwerty keybind compatibilty, but uses statistics
    to favor hand alteration but also include bigrams?
    And correct a few bad key placements? >:)

    Last edited by Dreyeth (31-Oct-2014 09:28:03)

    Sites: Gnolls.org, agenda21.us, pleasuredome.org.uk

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    I'm picking up a Logitech G600 and G13 soon, :)
    Screw configuration utilities that require online accesss.
    I've wanted them both for a long time.
    The G13 screen is useless vapor though.

    Last edited by Dreyeth (31-Oct-2014 09:34:06)

    Sites: Gnolls.org, agenda21.us, pleasuredome.org.uk

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