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    Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    • Started by axg
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    • axg
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    05-Aug-2015 06:52:48#1 Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    Hello forum,

    I come for advise. At this point of my life I feel that I have done a lot of things to enable a comfortable life now and moving forward. For the career side of things, being a programmer(learning in progress) I like to optimize things and the idea of optimizing vital tools like the keyboard itself is very intriguing. This thought has led me to learning a, what I thought at the time, the most optimized layout(QGMLWB from Carpalx now at 80wpm) and literally just today picking up a Kinesis Advantage. Now I'm sitting here typing on this beast of a keyboard and once again scary thoughts come to mind.

    Over the past week in anticipation of getting this keyboard, I have gone back to the keyboard part of the web and learned that my layout might not be as great as I had thought it to be. Websites like http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main even rank it quite below Colemak which I though to be inferior during my first layout choosing time when I decided to go all in without keeping much familiarity with QWERTY. I thought I was suffering more for a higher payoff, now I question my decision. So my question to you seasoned experts: is there a point to switching to something like MTGAP (kinesis advantage optimization)? I see that it has quite a lot of optimizations like not keeping symbols and punctuation in place among other things. It seems like another big effort to undertake, but I'm afraid that it once again could be meaningless since the MTGAP program produces different results from one time to another, the optimization parameters change causing all of the parameters to change and also the sheer fact that the maintainer seems to have mainly deserted the project, so who knows what  kind of further optimizations could be done if he finished the project or at least continued to improve upon it.

    So should I learn a new layout like Colemak, Workman, latest MTGAP or something else entirely, or stay where I'm at? Additionally since most layouts are optimized for crappy legacy keyboards are there ones made for the kinesis other than MTGAP's version?

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    05-Aug-2015 11:51:40#2 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    Welcome to the forum.

    I know where you are coming from. When faced with many alternatives, you make a decision, but then keep looking back at the options you rejected and question whether you have made the right choice.

    Personally I am not a huge fan of QGMLWB, but my feeling is the most important decision is the one you made to start using an optimized layout, the actual one you decided on matters less, as the difference between them is small in comparison from the gain from Qwerty.  People have different views on what makes a keyboard layout optimal, and there are many different algorithms. For reference, here is mine: https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/compare.html

    If I was you I'd probably stick with what you've learned as to change now would be a lot of work for a smaller gain. As davkol says, there are other important factors than the layout itself, not least of which are the useful innovations like the Extend layer, which I'm sure DreymaR will be happy to tell you about if you haven't seen it.  Furthermore whichever layout you pick, you can always make custom modifications for things like punctuation/programmer symbols. For example I make use of AltGr to define a new layer, which means brackets etc are on my home row.

    Last edited by stevep99 (05-Aug-2015 12:03:41)

    Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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    05-Aug-2015 11:56:58#3 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    just pick the layout with the best associated forum

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    05-Aug-2015 19:14:32#4 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    bph, I'm fairly certain that you are kidding, but this forum is actually a large part of why I chose Colemak over other available options. You guys have been very helpful and positive. I didn't see that kind of support from other keyboard layouts (with the possible exception of DSK).

    As to your question, QGMLWB is probably not the most efficient keyboard layout, but (1) the degree of difference between the top keyboards is so slight that switching from one to another is probably not worth it, (2) since you're already at 80 wpm, I would say don't mess with a good thing. As long as you like your keyboard layout and it is working for you, I would stick with it. As long as you are not on QWERTY!

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    07-Aug-2015 11:59:27#5 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    There is a near-consensus that the optimized layouts are all fairly good (except for the stupid ones that are home-cooked by morons like me in a weak moment), and as davkol points out there's no real evidence to facilitate selecting between them. Beyond that there's mostly preference: Do you want a layout that's pre-installed on many systems (Dvorak or, these days, Colemak), is well supported (same, pretty much), rolls (Colemak) or alternates (Dvorak) well, has good QWERTY similarity (Colemak) etc etc?

    If you worry about changing your layout again, then don't. QGMLWB, as far as I can see, is a good layout. You'll certainly miss out on the nearly extatic feeling of Colemak-DH of course... :-D

    Last edited by DreymaR (07-Aug-2015 11:59:43)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    17-Aug-2015 17:40:42#6 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.
    DreymaR said:

    QGMLWB, as far as I can see, is a good layout. You'll certainly miss out on the nearly extatic feeling of Colemak-DH of course... :-D

    Especially since QGMLWB foolishly puts R and I  in the centre column. Those keys are even more frequent than Colemak's D and H. Perhaps OP should invent Mod-RI for that layout  :-)

    Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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    18-Aug-2015 12:12:39#7 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    Hello axg   I feel your pain, I think several of the regular posters here have been where you are. Good points by davkol, stevep99 and dreymar.

    To add:

    The value of the online analyzer (nice as it is) is limited. The results of optimizers and analyzers are highly dependent on
    ° the grid (scores for keys and key combinations)
    ° optimization factors & penalties (alternations, jumps, rolls etc.)
    ° optimization rules (maximax, pareto, etc.)
    ° the corpus/corpora used

    There are many keyboards: if you optimize 30 keys, you have 30! possible layouts. Which is a lot..... (2.6 * 10e32), roughly equaling "10 million layouts for every drop of water in the ocean"  Assuming a normal distribution, lets say 1% of these keyboards are really good. This leaves you with countless of good layouts, many of which will be superior to Carpalx, Colemak, Dvorak, etc. In other words, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A BETTER LAYOUT

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    18-Aug-2015 12:31:42#8 Re: Facing a dilemma about learning a new layout despite knowing one.

    It's probably been uttered already... If you are in pursuit of the perfect layout you'll need to find something that suits you and your device.  Many optimised layouts concentrate on placing the most popular letters on the home row.  That might be great for some, but perhaps not so great for others.  The middle column might be a problem for you, Qwerty's R (and to some extent Y) is tricky for me, or rather it deviates my hand position slightly which aggravates me.  Something I only detected after using Dvorak for a long while.  Immediate gripes and troubles that I had with the right pinky partially subsided (I say that because this digit is still overloaded on the standard keyboard).  That also suggests that you may be able to overcome or adopt a different style, even if it feels alien at first.  Different strokes for different folks and all that.

    Last edited by pinkyache (18-Aug-2015 12:32:56)

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