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    Layout advice for polish programmer

    • Started by Saturnin
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    • Registered: 12-Sep-2015
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    Hello all !

    Recently I've bought my first new ANSI mechanical keyboard and I've would like to learn more ergonomic keyboard layout than [in]famous qwerty. Colemak sounds way better for me than Dvorak and I would like to ask You which Colemak version would suit me the best.
    I'm writing in english and polish. For national characters I use AltGr + one of a, c, e, l, n, s, o, x, z letters. Therefore using wide mode (right hand moved one key right) seems to very good idea due to better hands separation and easier reaching AltGr key.
    I'm intrigued with angle mod. Since in Poland letter "z" is used quite often (below is character usage percentage), layout xcvbz seems better option than [ before q and ] before a. Additionally my hands will still have better separation from wide mod.
    I've thought about DH modification both in orginal and DbgHk versions but standard Colemak seems to be better suited for polish. Letters k + m & b + z are quite nicely assigned to pointing fingers in bottom row.
    Since I'm newbie I would like to hear experts if my assumptions above make sense or if I'm mistaken.
    Is there graphical layout diagram with layout "Colemak ANSI Angle Z Wide no curl" (qwfpg[jluy;' arstd]hneio xcvbz/km,.) available?

    Chart of letter frequency in polish:
    a    8.91    t    3.98    l    2.10    ż    0.83
    i    8.21    c    3.96    ł    1.82    ś    0.66
    o    7.75    y    3.76    ,    ?.??    ć    0.40
    e    7.66    k    3.51    b    1.47    f    0.30
    z    5.64    d    3.25    g    1.42    ń    0.20
    n    5.52    p    3.13    ę    1.11    q    0.14
    r    4.69    m    2.80    h    1.08    ź    0.06
    w    4.65    u    2.50    ą    0.99    v    0.04
    s    4.32    j    2.28    ó    0.85    x    0.02

    Thank You in advance for any help.

    Last edited by Saturnin (12-Sep-2015 19:56:11)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Like this, you mean?

        Cmk-ANSI-AWide-ZQu_60d_FShui.png
        Colemak Angle(Z)Wide(Qu) on an ANSI keyboard; DreymaR's suggested fingering

    You've seen my suggested Polish layout in the sig topics? The problem is the Żż key which an ANSI keyboard will lack. You could use AltGr with Zz but it may be annoying.

        Cmk-eD-pl-usym-aw_Xm.png
        Colemak[eD]-Polish 'Unified Symbols' layout (AngleWide), with fast-access accent dead keys on the bracket keys

    I cannot really advise you about DH-mod or not. I love the DH mod, obviously, and it didn't take too long to get used to once I was used to Colemak.

    You've seen Tarmak too, I hope?

    Last edited by DreymaR (14-Sep-2015 13:35:48)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Thank You very much ! That is exactly layout I was searching for !

    I'm experimenting with qwerty Wide & AngleZ layout and I think xcvzb (z switched with b) suits me the best. I have x c v & b under the same fingers as before and only in case of x c & v angle is slightly different. In this layout z is much more comfortable to use due to switching pinky with pointing finger and b is in it's good old position.

    To be honest I didn't get that fast-access accent dead keys part. I'm using AltGr + letter for whole of my life so that is what I'm used to. Accents are assigned to US a c e l n o s x and z keys and they are working perfectly in PKL for Windows. Those letters are also quite easy to reach in standard Colemak layout.
    [edit] After a while I think I've understood what You meant. I've remapped whole key (all layers) and I think Windows took care of rest. Maybe I'll try to add German letters to AltGr layer after I'll gain some proficiency with it. Is there any more convenient solution for accented chars than AltGr? Shift + ` (or some shortcut) and then letter seems to be slower and mapping accented chars in basic layout means loosing special symbols I use in programming.

    Yes, I've seen Tarmak layouts and my plan is to get used to QWERTY Wide & AngleZ layout and then go Tarmak1-5 adjusted properly.

    In the meantime I try to understand beauty of Your extended layout (with CapsLock modifier). I've reorganized it but I want to understand why You've arranged it in that way :) There is huge potential in not constantly moving right hand to mouse/arrows & home block/letters block back and forth. Great idea indeed !

    Last edited by Saturnin (14-Sep-2015 20:10:30)
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    What exactly do you wonder about with the Extend layer? "Why I've arranged it that way" is a bit unspecific. ;-)

    My point is that having the much-used accents on an unshifted key makes it very fast to hit the accent and then the letter, like a normal bigram. In contrast, AltGr presses can twist the hand a bit and require you to keep one key down while hitting the other which can be annoying when typing very fast. Some AltGr presses are quite okay, but others are a bother. AltGr+N for instance, is very easy!

    One of the world's fastest typists, Sean Wrona, once said that he preferred using Sticky Shift (like a dead-key Shift) to the normal shift when typing really fast. This illustrates the point that using a modifier key is more complex and potentially error-prone than hitting two keys in succession.

    Using a Wide mod makes AltGr presses much easier, as the right-hand thumb rests closer to the AltGr key so there's less twisting of the hand.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    About Extend layer I've wondered why You've mapped ctrl / shift / alt keys. I do not use Windows short keys very often and that is a main reason why I didn't get it. Right now I'm trying to type / edit text without changing position of my hands and it starts to make perfect sense. If I want to be real fast at typing I have to retrain most of my habits :)

    I've never used ISO board and that is why I'm not familiar with dead keys concept. AltGr was the only way I knew to write accented letters. After I will learn Colemak I will have to rethink whole thing :) It will be quite weird at start to type j a [dk] z [dk] n instead of j a ź ń, but it might be beneficial. Very important thing will be placement of dead key which will be quite hard on ANSI board.

    Thank You for explanation !

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    That's what my enthusiastic Extend topic is all about. The remapped modifiers are a big part of what makes this so powerful!

    I'm Norwegian and we have both some AltGr mappings and some dead key accents on our keyboards. I think that dead keys are nice when you have many letters using the same accent, but if those letters are a bit common the dead key needs to be easy to hit. For my standard layout I use AltGr+symbol keys to get the accent dead keys, but since for instance Czech and Polish use the same accents a lot their keys need to be easy to hit. That's why I put them on the first shift level in my Polish layout.

    It may feel weird at first if you're not used to dead keys, but keep in mind that it's more like hand writing (where you'll write the accent and the letter separately – albeit in the opposite sequence!) and Linux Compose (where you can usually write the two parts in any sequence), it's not more key presses but probably a little more ergonomic and it lets you overload letters more easily (in Polish, this applies to ż and ź which both compete for the Z key with the AltGr approach).

    Last edited by DreymaR (16-Sep-2015 10:19:12)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Dead key approach seems like a good idea. Right now I'm using Tarmak2ET layout. When I fully switch to Colemak I'll familiarize more with Extend and then I'll test dead key approach.
    Btw. judging by Tarmak2ET, Colemak seems to be way more comfortable to type than qwerty ;) My fingers are tingling me a little bit (quite pleasant feeling) and my wrist seems to be more relaxed.

    [Edit] Is it possible to remap in PKL key from specified layer only? I would like to swap / with ~ (shift + `) so that I would have easier access to dead key (I'm using ANSI layout where / is in bottom row between qwerty's z and n). Position of ` and ? should however be unchanged. Other idea would be to add some options to AltGr layer (i.e. [ and ] to AltGr + 9 and AltGr + 0).

    Last edited by Saturnin (20-Sep-2015 12:37:06)
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    Oo, tingly feelings! How nice! :-D

    Yes, you can remap each layer in a PKL layout. But the Tarmak layouts are remapping using 'VirtualKey' mappings which use the system mappings and just move the logical keys themselves around. If you look into one of the layouts with [eD] in them you'll see how full key remappings are done, and you may mix VirtualKey and full mappings in the same layout freely.

    I haven't included any full-mapped ANSI layouts it seems, but what we need to know is that the slash and tilde keys have the VK names OEM_2 and OEM_3 on US/ANSI boards (it's different for Euro/ISO boards – see the layout.ini files if you're interested!). Furthermore, dead keys in PKL are handled by numbers so you'll need to copy lists of the dead keys you want from one of my [eD] layout files and, if you want to do anything fancy, take note of which number corresponds to which dead key!

    The lines you need for your layout.ini file (replacing the lines you've currently got for the two keys) will look something like this:

    SC029 = OEM_3    0    `    ~    --    dk14    ≈    ; QWERTY `~ - dk_tilde, US/ANSI
    SC035 = OEM_2    0    /    ?    --    dk19    ¿    ; QWERTY /? ; dk_stroke, US/ANSI

    So you'll need to copy my dead key list from one of my layouts, at least up to dk_19 (so take the whole list – it's a lot of lines but just paste it into your layout.ini file at the end). Otherwise you'll have to renumber the ones you're going to use. Now, to swap / with the ~[dead] change the above lines like this:

    SC029 = OEM_3    0    `    ~    --    /    ≈    ; QWERTY `~ - dk_tilde, US/ANSI
    SC035 = OEM_2    0    dk14    ?    --    dk19    ¿    ; QWERTY /? ; dk_stroke, US/ANSI

    Make sure you get it right with respect to tabulator white space! Use an editor which shows white space (like NotePad++) and look in the layout.ini file how it's done.

    Good luck!

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Sep-2015 15:26:21)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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