• You are not logged in.

Next Generation

  • Started by bph
  • 44 Replies:
  • Reputation: 11
  • Registered: 06-Jun-2013
  • Posts: 560

Heres a conundrum

My eldest lad is 6 and starting to express an interest in computers and therefore typing.

Now, I wonder if I would be doing him a service or a disservice if I were to introduce him to computing via the colemak layout?

My gut feeling is that I should probably stick with qwerty for starters?

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 4
  • Registered: 04-Feb-2010
  • Posts: 149

Well, kids learn much faster than adults. That is why they always say to get your kids started on languages and musical instruments when they are young. This side of the argument has me leaning towards letting your kid learn, or at least be exposed to multiple layouts.

I would not recommend you introduce him ONLY to Colemak though.

The thing is, there are a lot of other factors to consider as well. Such as, quisque maximus dolor nec touch typing orci tincidunt rutrum. Suspendisse potenti. Ut placerat venenatis sem, blank keycaps a rhoncus augue. Duis nec ortholinear keyboards lorem sed lorem feugiat rutrum id sed lectus. Quisque barrier to entry et tincidunt elit. Pellentesque stifling creativity vel erat sed orci posuere convallis vitae sed tellus. Quisque posuere nisi risus, tablet computers nec interdum est pellentesque consequat. Vestibulum social norms neque lacus, aliquet sed hendrerit peer pressure pulvinar, hendrerit et purus. Morbi interdum schoolyard gaming ut nunc vitae ullamcorper. Quisque ac onscreen keyboards lorem feugiat, dapibus nulla et, luctus purus. Cras gesture typing dapibus mollis nunc, id facilisis dolor tristique maximus. Aliquam consequat diam pretium, consequat eros voice typing et, pharetra tellus. Proin maximus vitae tellus ut maximus. You can lead a horse to water, etc.



... yeah. Raising kids is hard enough already. Stick to Qwerty. You've got time to share why YOU use Colemak as he grows up, and if HE chooses to learn it too, awesome. If not, then it is one less thing for him to resent you for when he's deciding what nursing home you go to. ;)

Either way, good luck!

Last edited by cevgar (06-Apr-2017 01:59:20)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 11
  • Registered: 06-Jun-2013
  • Posts: 560

cevgar you are a sensible head on level shoulders - wise words indeed

that nursing home better be good, i'm talking occasional steaks and red wine and elevenses every day..

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 117
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 14-Apr-2014
  • Posts: 978

There's no avoiding Qwerty unfortunately.

But I'd take the the analogy with languages. If a child grows up in a household where the parents speak more than one language, it's probably a good idea to expose the child to both languages, and have them grow up learning both simultaneously.

It's probably much easier to become 'bikeyboardial' too if you are only 6.

Last edited by stevep99 (06-Apr-2017 14:10:39)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 4
  • Registered: 04-Feb-2010
  • Posts: 149

Heh, 'bikeyboardial'.


Actually, thinking about it a bit more, I'd recommend getting a set of those transparent Colemak Keyboard Stickers. This way the kids can be familiarized with both Qwerty and Colemak without forcing anything.

Colemak%20Stickers.jpg?dl=1

Seems you can also get them color coded for finger placement. Not sure what you do if you don't agree with the zxcv shift though...

Colemak%20Fingering%20Stickers.jpg?dl=1


TypeMatrix used to have a great thing going with the TypeMatrix 2020 Qwerty/Dvorak. All Typematrix keyboards type Qwerty by default, but have a Capslock-like Dvorak key, with the keyboard light and everything. The advantage of the Qwerty/Dvorak model was that it was labeled for both layouts. It was great for learning because you could clearly tell what layout you were using and it was easy to switch, Not the bungled mess that Windows makes it.

They have since stopped doing that and all keyboards are only labeled for one layout. Wouldn't have helped anyways as it wasn't Colemak. I don't know of anyone making a similar product.

2020-dq.png?dl=1
(The 1,A and D indicators at the upper right are for Numlock, Capslock and Dvorak respectively. The two halves of the split spacebar could not be independently programmed.)


As a not entirely unrelated side note: Braille keyboard stickers are also available. I've always wondered if that would be beneficial for learning touch typing.

Last edited by cevgar (06-Apr-2017 15:04:46)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

I gave my middle daughter a Colemak-setup laptop to learn on, and she adopted that just fine. Later on, she moved on to QWERTY and I don't think she remembers any Colemak any more. Hard to beat the world.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

My children know that I'm using an alternative layout and I even explained them why I'm doing so, but they do not have any interest in picking it or learning touch typing. This is seems not practical for them. I can explain to my colleagues why I'm using Colemak and they accepts that (while still thinking that it does not worth the efforts), but what my 10 years old son may tell to his buddies about why he is using a weird layout? It is much harder to be not like others in that age.

Last edited by ckofy (07-Apr-2017 13:39:47)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

On a mostly unrelated side note: Whoever uses Braille stickers to learn touch typing first is almost guaranteed to win the forum Geek-Of-The-Month award! ^_^

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • From: Washington DC
  • Registered: 12-Apr-2017
  • Posts: 15
DreymaR said:

I gave my middle daughter a Colemak-setup laptop to learn on, and she adopted that just fine. Later on, she moved on to QWERTY and I don't think she remembers any Colemak any more. Hard to beat the world.

"Hard to beat the world."  But, "nothing is impossible with God."  It is precisely because of sentiments like that that I have made it my mission to convert the international standard from QWERTY to Colemak.  And DreymaR, the Tarmak transitional system that you spearheaded is perhaps the single most important development in the history of keyboarding.  It takes the problem of changing the world's keyboards from QWERTY to Colemak from the realm of "if" to "when."

My name is Gregory GOrDon and I am blessed.  "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."  I am invoking the name of Jesus to get the job done.  I am as I claim to be, the second coming of Jesus Christ.  While members of this forum may not want the Colemak keyboard associated with such a wild claim, have no fear. Yesterday was my first full day as a Colemak typist.  I have used Dvorak for more than 40 years.  In my previous books I wrote about the Dvorak keyboard and without fail whether or not people believed in me as Christ, they chose to switch to Dvorak.

I can do the same thing for Colemak.  "Jesus is on the job."

Much of my work is already done.  DreymaR, you and other members of the Colemak community have taken care of the technical aspects.  Shai has built the ergonomic aspects into the keyboard.  The economic aspects are undeniable and the social aspects will be taken care of through social media.  The final part is the legal aspect and this is our "Trump Card."  Product Liability and Warranty.  I would go into the matter in depth here but that would take a lot of typing.  Basically all you need to know is that QWERTY was not designed for touch typing.

I have covered the topic on the Colemak Miracle page at my web site.  It is a work in progress and will be the basis for the transformation. 

In parting, let me just ask for your cooperation.  I am well suited for the task.  I passed the member given Mensa test. went to Boalt Hall Law School and have won The Golden Web Award from The International Association of Webmasters and Designers four times.  We can do this!  And, when we are through we can say: "We did it ourselves."

Watch for the new book: "The Colemak Keyboard Miracle - Why Jesus came back with priceless keyboard keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matthew 16:19)" Coming Fall 2017: http://Jesus.bio

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

I'm constantly amazed that keyboards still exist.

My partner has gone all 21st century by owning and using a mobile smart phone, and now bangs out emails and chats with what appears clumsy one fingering.  That said it's quick enough and will do.  Her keyboard typing is fast enough but requires some peeking and she does either as and when the need occurs.

I'm saying that because knowing and watching kids they seem to live and breathe by their phones.  Keyboarding today IS falling by the wayside.  So I doubt it matters one iota.

However, if you do think touch typing is a skill worth imbibing, not having legends on the keys I think can help you get out the habit of looking.  So learning a layout (from scratch) that is not Qwerty might in some ways be easier.  But perhaps going from being able to see the keyboard to pure touch has other benefits.  Who knows?

Fun keyboard games could be a way in, but something tells me kids will only learn the bare essentials to do what they need to do.

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Apr-2017 08:58:47)

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

How about getting a keyboard, and removing all labels from keys where the layouts (say Qwerty and Colemak) differ?  If you were fine with the idea of them learning both, one or either.

Last edited by pinkyache (18-Apr-2017 09:06:07)

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

Thanks for the praise, Jesus! It's nice to know that people are helped by this community's and my own endeavors.

About the stagger issue, you must've read about the AngleWide and Curl-DH mods in my Big Bag topics? These address those issues. While less effective than a Kinesis (I believe), they work on standard-issue hardware. The Curl-DvbgHm mod is useable on a Kinesis too, and I think it's a good idea. One might argue that it's confusing to newcomers that there are two Curl mods in addition to vanilla Colemak, but I believe we need these to stop Workman/Norman in their tracks as they address issues those layouts address without leaving the brilliant stats of Colemak behind. And they're so nice, too (I use the DbgHk Curl mod on normal-stagger boards).

There's also Extend which I feel is every bit as good as Colemak itself. And even a recalcitrant QWERTY user could benefit from at least parts of it. It's low threshold, big benefit whereas Colemak is more high threshold, big benefit.

I think keyboards are here to stay for a while more, at least. It's nice to be able to use all your fingers to input text; that's efficient. I imagine something like a DataHand could be nice, or even the Wayfarer Textblade. But these are still 8–10 finger approaches.

Last edited by DreymaR (18-Apr-2017 11:17:52)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 6
  • Registered: 25-Jan-2017
  • Posts: 54
pinkyache said:

I'm constantly amazed that keyboards still exist.

Voice input is extremely accurate nowadays, both on phone and desktop. That will be the future I think

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221
misterW said:
pinkyache said:

I'm constantly amazed that keyboards still exist.

Voice input is extremely accurate nowadays, both on phone and desktop. That will be the future I think

Well, imagine an office where everybody mumbling something in microphones. Or using voice input for coding in today's mostly textual programming languages rich of special symbols. This approach has its limitation, while keyboarding is universal. I do not think it will disappear soon, at least not in our lives.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

"Ultimately unnecessary", yes, but your computer should have AI a little better than Siri until your programming scenario will be possible. Which coding level is high enough? BTW, the source code may not be a text at all. I'm programming in LabVIEW for example. It requires a way more drawing and mousing than entering text, and it is "syntax free" compare to other "text" languages. Source code are diagrams. Still complex projects can be done.
Today the program creation scenario you described is only possible when, say, my manager is telling me "I want your program does so and so" and then I provide him the working application for review. No keyboard needed for him. :)

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

You people with your garden-variety English seem to think that everything's figured out with respect to voice recognition. It isn't. With all the pidgins and dialects and languages out there, adopting this tech full-scale would lead to a deepening of the rich-poor world schism. I don't want that.

Exhibit A:
https://youtu.be/NMS2VnDveP8

^_^

Of course, Watson and other learning machines are getting better every minute so for all I know language recognition may be easy some day soon and that'll of course change the equation radically. But until then, text is more friendly.

LabView and other mousing apps isn't going to be a problem though. You'll sit and point your finger at the screen while talking, I guess.

Last edited by DreymaR (20-Apr-2017 09:08:38)

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

I see an ergonomic issue with voice recognition. It looks cool indeed (when it works), but do you think that talking to the computer the entire day is not more tediously than pressing buttons the entire day? Have you tried to solely speak at the meeting for an hour? What is happened to your voice at the end?

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

I like the Star Trek style computer interaction.  It's more master and servant, and as such you save your voice and energy (like the boss example above).

Last edited by pinkyache (20-Apr-2017 14:55:22)

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

Yes, Star Trek computer comes to my mind as well. :)

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 11
  • Registered: 06-Jun-2013
  • Posts: 560

i karnt speek anywear near as well as i can right

Last edited by bph (20-Apr-2017 16:24:08)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 6
  • Registered: 25-Jan-2017
  • Posts: 54
ckofy said:

Or using voice input for coding in today's mostly textual programming languages rich of special symbols.

davkol said:

Take, for example, the special symbols in programming languages: they don't matter, it's just syntactic sugar… you could say things like "pointer to integer X" in case of stuff that matters, while more and more code is generated. Heck, what do compilers do? Free developers from writing low-level machine code. And parsers for those compilers are commonly generated from grammars…


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI

:)

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

Thank you for the link, very interesting.
It is working indeed. I've actually expected something like that system to be existing somewhere. As the guy told, out of box products are created for ms word and outlook, but not for programming.
Keywords are still: "requires training" and "suffering from RSI". People can play table tennis holding rocket in their mouth or dress themselves using their legs when they have no arms. But would it be better than using arms? The guy in the video would not come up to that system if he would not suffer from RSI.
The expensive $300 mic is also required to successfully use that VR. While with any $15 keyboard the same can be done as much effective.
Why we do texting on phone when we can just call instead? Because speaking is not always appropriate to the task. You may consider me a retrograde, but IMO such VRs will always be a niche solutions but not a mainstream. Good old qwerty will outlive all of us. :)

Last edited by ckofy (22-Apr-2017 01:53:26)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 117
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 14-Apr-2014
  • Posts: 978

I don't see keyboards disappearing any time soon... which was part of my decision to learn Colemak in the first place. If I'd thought keyboards were likely to disappear in the next few years I might not have bothered!

But in the longer term, I do think they will become mostly obsolete, at least in their current form, perhaps surviving only in niche applications. Voice recognition has improved a lot in recent years, and although still not perfect, I don't see any reason why it can't in due course become as good as - or better than - the human brain.

If keyboards do hang around longer term, I would assume some kind of evolution would need take place to keep them relevant to changing requirements. For situations where voice is not appropriate, perhaps new interfaces might be developed. I imagine a future where interaction with technology might be via a combination of various methods - including voice, gestures, and buttons or keys.

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 21
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 27-Apr-2016
  • Posts: 221

Each time/generation has its own science fiction appropriate to the epoch. In the 20th century that was space travels and colonizing of other planets. Many people was sure that will be a reality in the year 2017. Is it? But we have the Internet instead that nobody imagined about at that old time. Most of progress nowaday is in electronics and information technologies. And we trend to imagine even more progress in that area familiar for us. But it might be something else what we can not imagine today.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 214
  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
  • Posts: 5,361

In a VR environment (which may not be as far-fetched as you think), QWERTY becomes a huge hassle I believe. Something like MessagEase or TextBlade (fewer, larger buttons but with sweeps – yet based on a well-known layout like my Colemakoid MessagEase setup) may be more useful there.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
*** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

Offline
  • 0