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    Why is pro-Dvorak information referred to as 'propaganda'?

    • Started by wibble
    • 11 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 27-Dec-2007
    • Posts: 21

    Hi.

    WRT https://colemak.com/Hand_alternation

    I do not see why it is necessary to create antagonism by referring to information about Dvorak as 'propaganda.'

    Use of such words will promote antagonism.

    Also WRT https://colemak.com/Hand_alternation - anyone alienated by your use of the term 'propaganda' on that page is more likely to pick up on the fact that the comparison made between Qwerty, Dvorak and Colemak does not compare like with like - and assume that this is an intentional, though clumsy, attempt to hide something.

    Why does the last illustration suddenly switch to 'right hand underlined (assumes space bar is hit with the right hand),' and show the spaces underlined, whereas the other two figures don't?


    P.S. Merry Christmas!

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    • Shai
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    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
    • Posts: 423

    I've changed the wording from "propaganda" to "advocacy".

    In all cases, it assumes that the space bar is hit with the right hand, and in all cases, it highlights the hand that is prominently used, and therefore highlighted more frequently (right hand for Dvorak, left hand for Colemak and QWERTY).

    Again, it is not claimed that Colemak has a higher hand alternation than Dvorak (it says it's not so in the introduction), it's just there to show that:
    1. QWERTY has an issue with hand alternation.
    2. In Colemak hand alternation is not such a big deal anymore.
    3. Dvorak has better hand alternation, but the right hand needs to do more work.

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
    • Posts: 358

    I understand what your are saying about the underlining, but wibble's point is still valid in the sense that changing what underlining means in the last case (changing it's meaning to indicate right hand rather than left hand) is a cardinal sin of illustration.  It prevents the reader from making an easy visual comparison.  Trust the reader to see the shift in hand prominence.  To change the meaning of underlining only leads to confusion.

    A couple of questions come to my mind. 

    Isn't Colemak's hand alternation here in comparison to Qwerty due almost if not entirely to putting the most common letter in English, 'e', on the right hand? 

    How prominent is the Dvorak right hand usage really if you subtract out the use of the right thumb, a strong finger, for the space bar?  What if a Dvorak user practiced using the left thumb for the space bar rather the right as way to change the balance?  (I just switched to using my left thumb for the space bar in typing these sentences, interesting.)

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    • Registered: 27-Dec-2007
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    The recent amendment to https://colemak.com/Hand_alternation such that instead of 'left hand underlined' for QWERTY and Colemak it now says 'left hand underlined (assumes space bar is hit with the right hand)' for both of these is not an improvement - in fact, it's worse, since only the most astute readers will now spot the change from 'left' to 'right' for Dvorak.

    As keyboard samurai has pointed out, this is a cardinal sin of illustration.

    /wanders off pondering 'propaganda' and feeling reasonably sure that this entire site is unfairly biased against non-Colemak layouts.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,363

    Well if you point out something and it's corrected immediately and you're still miffed about it then I'm feeling reasonably sure that you are yourself unfairly biased against this site. In which case, feel free to wander off and I hope you ponder out something good eventually.  :p

    In case you haven't wandered off yet as promised, maybe you'd like to suggest an improvement of the text yourself?

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    • Shai
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    • Registered: 11-Dec-2005
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    How about if I changed it so the left hand is underlined in one color, and the right hand is underlined in another color for all layouts, and assume that the space bar is hit with the right hand?

    In the meanwhile I completely removed Dvorak out of the comparison.

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    DreymaR said:

    Well if you point out something and it's corrected immediately and you're still miffed about it then I'm feeling reasonably sure that you are yourself unfairly biased against this site. In which case, feel free to wander off and I hope you ponder out something good eventually.  :p

    In case you haven't wandered off yet as promised, maybe you'd like to suggest an improvement of the text yourself?

    There is no need to 'suggest an improvement,' the obvious solution to the problem is to show the comparison like with like.

    Changing the terms of reference mid-comparison:
    (a) does not allow the reader to make a true comparison
    (b) misleads those who do not notice that the switch has been made and
    (c) leaves those who DO notice the switch wondering why the switch was necessary in the first place.

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    • Registered: 27-Dec-2007
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    Shai said:

    How about if I changed it so the left hand is underlined in one color, and the right hand is underlined in another color for all layouts, and assume that the space bar is hit with the right hand?

    In the meanwhile I completely removed Dvorak out of the comparison.

    Personally I think that underlining is sufficient - why change it?

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    • Registered: 08-Mar-2008
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    wibble said:

    /wanders off pondering 'propaganda' and feeling reasonably sure that this entire site is unfairly biased against non-Colemak layouts.

    I'm afraid I feel the same way. It seems like you guys are spending an awful lot of time explaining why Colemak is better than everything else. Sure, it's a great layout, but you don't see Michael Capewell or Whatshisname Klausler running around telling everyone how great their keyboards are. I think you should lay out the facts on your site, and stop talking about how incredible your layout is. Not to say it's not, but it should speak for itself. I have nothing against your layout, but you Colemak supporters are coming on very strongly. It's as if you're saying, "Use Colemak or you will be damned for eternity! Plus it's good."

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
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    I think that is a bit strong and uncalled for.  There are quite a few Dvorak propaganda sites on the internet.  Is it surprising that Colemak.com is pro-Colemak ?   There are some enthusiastic users.  Why should we have to apologize for our enthusiasm?   Has anyone attacked you for being a Dvorak user on here ?   wibble came on the forum questioning things and no one told him to leave.  You can even see in this thread that Shai was making changes in response to wibble's feedback.    It does seem that a number of Colemak users on here came across and either tried or switched to Dvorak first (not surprising since it's been around much longer), and obviously they wouldn't have switched again if they were not somehow still unsatisfied with Dvorak.  Naturally some of those would posts what dissatisfied them.  Early adopters by nature are going to be enthusiastic supporters that want others to at least know about what they love.    On the piano forum I am on for an adult learning method you could make the exact same comments, yes we spend a lot of time explaining why we that piano method is the greatest thing since slice bread and there often excited beginners getting encouragement from more experienced players.  Same goes for the martial arts forum I participate in.  That's part of what the forum is for.  The FACTS such as they are laid out at this site, but much will always remain the subjective experience of an individual adopter.  So if you love Dvorak fine.  I love using Colemak. Also fine.  Allow us a bit of enthusiasm in this one small bit internet real estate.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Well, to the best of my knowledge Capewell and Klausler aren't actively involved in layouts these days and Capewell hasn't finished his project. Furthermore, none of their layouts have a substantial number of users even compared with little Colemak. Correct me if I'm wrong. So if they don't have a community of users and don't have themselves actively supporting their layouts, who's to run around telling anyone anything?

    More to the point, why shouldn't we be enthusiastic? It's as Samurai says. I've found a great thing, I care about it, I feel like chatting about it on its' own forums with all the enthusiasm I'm feeling. If that puts you off, well, too bad and frankly I feel like saying shame on you for being so petty about things.

    Reading web fora is completely optional. This is the down-to-earth one in my portfolio. If you think it is too strong, then I wonder what you think about most of the internet?

    And no, no Colemak user I can think of would be saying anything even remotely along the vein of "Use Colemak or you will be damned for eternity!" (unless in a clearly jesting context). On the contrary, I'm pleased to see that users of other layouts are met with rational and calm argument and quite often told that they may be perfectly happy staying with the layout they're presently using - especially if it's an improved one like Dvorak/Capewell/Arensito etcetera. If I'm wrong and you're not fighting straw men here, please show me a quote illustrating your claim.

    If anyone has come through as too strong here, I'd suggest it is you SpeedMorph.

    Last edited by DreymaR (10-Mar-2008 21:16:55)

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    DreymaR said:

    Well, to the best of my knowledge Capewell and Klausler aren't actively involved in layouts these days and Capewell hasn't finished his project. Furthermore, none of their layouts have a substantial number of users even compared with little Colemak. Correct me if I'm wrong. So if they don't have a community of users and don't have themselves actively supporting their layouts, who's to run around telling anyone anything?

    More to the point, why shouldn't we be enthusiastic? It's as Samurai says. I've found a great thing, I care about it, I feel like chatting about it on its' own forums with all the enthusiasm I'm feeling. If that puts you off, well, too bad and frankly I feel like saying shame on you for being so petty about things.

    Reading web fora is completely optional. This is the down-to-earth one in my portfolio. If you think it is too strong, then I wonder what you think about most of the internet?

    And no, no Colemak user I can think of would be saying anything even remotely along the vein of "Use Colemak or you will be damned for eternity!" (unless in a clearly jesting context). On the contrary, I'm pleased to see that users of other layouts are met with rational and calm argument and quite often told that they may be perfectly happy staying with the layout they're presently using - especially if it's an improved one like Dvorak/Capewell/Arensito etcetera. If I'm wrong and you're not fighting straw men here, please show me a quote illustrating your claim.

    If anyone has come through as too strong here, I'd suggest it is you SpeedMorph.

    Yeah, okay, maybe I'm just being.....um....well I don't really know what to call it, but that's what I am being. You are right. Continue loving Colemak, I won't stop you.

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