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    From Dvorak...

    • Started by sapphirecat
    • 10 Replies:
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    • From: Jamestown NY USA
    • Registered: 23-Aug-2008
    • Posts: 6

    5.8 years ago, I began a semester in college and switched to Dvorak, cold turkey. I seem to top out at ~100 wpm, with more of a 75 wpm cruise speed. I think I did ~70 wpm max on Qwerty after 3 years of serious use. I was taught to touch-type earlier, but using 6 or so fingers on a memorized keyboard, I thought "proper" typing was too slow.

    I first heard about Colemak when the latest news was that it would be in the next release of X.org, but I started on it (nights only) yesterday. Moving toward a net admin role at work is placing me in front of Qwerty more frequently, and I can't type on it at all anymore.

    I'm hoping that Colemak will be better suited to the Qwerty world; if not, I'll stick with Dvorak. No way am I ever going back to Qwerty full-time! I tried that first, to see if it could be a milestone on the road to Colemak, but it's too painful. That was actually a major reason for going Dvorak in the first place.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I find it to be so, but I think you'll have to give it time before you come to a conclusion. Your Dvorak is fast, so switching to Colemak will be annoying for you. Unless you have patience with this project, it may very well fail.

    Dvorak is a good layout so you won't get any major direct typing advantages from Colemak in all likelihood. It's just the QWERTY-compliance issue. It may become too annoying for you to use a layout you're not accustomed to, which isn't really easy to learn (it's easier than Dvorak to learn... for a QWERTY user - but I switched from Dvorak to Colemak and had some trouble before things stabilized) and which gives no apparent advantages for quite a while. Not trying to put you off the idea, but just don't expect too much too fast. That way, you'll be pleasantly surprised instead of unpleasantly!  :)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    • From: Jamestown NY USA
    • Registered: 23-Aug-2008
    • Posts: 6

    I remember Dvorak taking at least a week before I could type without having to think about every keystroke. I'm actually expecting Colemak to take longer, since I can't afford to switch at work yet. I figure that I'll switch completely either when I get decent speed at Colemak, or it starts dragging down my Dvorak speed (too far).

    Dvorak did have its share of annoyances,  such as I and F, but I'm going to miss having dash so close at hand.

    I've also used Dvorak long enough that it's weird to see Qwerty people type: they actually get the letters they're pushing. How alien! ;-)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I just switched to the standard Colemak from the Norwegian one, and the one thing that I find annoying with that is the dash. I wonder where it could be better placed? Maybe it should get the place next to the period; that's where my old layout had it and I never found that frustrating. Question marks and forward slashes should be rarer than dash/minus I think.

    Anyone remember a good link to the frequencies of punctuation?

    The only thing I did change with my new Colemak was to put the Norwegian characters in more logical AltGr places. And swap the colon and semicolon. Maybe someone who codes C all day would want the semicolon to be better placed than the colon, but the rest of us shouldn't have to suffer. I greatly enjoy the colon's easy placement in Vim (commands), entering time points (HH:MM) and in everyday language.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    • From: Jamestown NY USA
    • Registered: 23-Aug-2008
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    DreymaR said:

    Anyone remember a good link to the frequencies of punctuation?

    I can't find one, so I started writing a program to read my existing code and analyze it, but I still type too slow to program. The layout requires too much bandwidth. I'll try again when I get more speed.

    My current speed goal is 50 wpm qwerty and 75 wpm Colemak in 60 days. I don't care about my Dvorak speed, as long as I have at least one layout above 50 wpm at all times (for those "OMG the server's down hey Cat can you fix it ASAP!" moments).

    And I do a lot of PHP with a pinch of Perl and ActionScript, so semicolon is well-used on my keyboard. It might be interesting for AltGr to put all the !@#$ symbols on the home row...

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    • From: Jamestown NY USA
    • Registered: 23-Aug-2008
    • Posts: 6

    Well, I tried writing some code today in Colemak at work, since I was getting sufficiently practiced with it that it was displacing Dvorak from my default mental layout. I discovered I really hate having dash and equals up in the corner, since -> and => are fairly common digraphs. Although braces and brackets are also common, they tend to be used in conjunction with parentheses or numbers, so they don't pose as much of a problem as jumping over two rows.

    If it were entirely up to me, I'd move the quote down to where slash is, and move the other characters (dash, slash, equals, and the brackets) to their Dvorak positions. But while this is a tweak I'm perfectly capable of making, it means a rougher time switching to/from Qwerty on other machines, and it also means that anywhere offering standard Colemak is not nearly as useful. Whereas using an unmodified Dvorak means that there's a pretty good chance of being able to get "my" keyboard on "foreign" machines.

    The most painful parts of learning were R-S and S-E. After I got R-S sorted out and passed 20 wpm, I'd often get an S when I meant E. I think that's because E is the same finger on both Qwerty and Dvorak, but switches hands (but not finger) for Colemak. That was something I didn't have time to overcome. Another same-finger-opposite-hand problem child was K.

    There is only one more experiment left for me to do. Once my fingers get Dvorak solidly back into them, I want to test my speed again, and see if the different feel of Colemak limbered me up any. At the moment, I get mostly-Dvorak if I'm typing as fast as possible, and half-Colemak if I think in the least about where the letters are.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    R-S is the most painful for most Colemak learners, whether coming from QWERTY or Dvorak. According to Shai, it was a case of efficiency winning over ease of learning. Incidentially, his earlier layout attempts such as ASETION had the S in its' old place.

    I also remember the E as tricky coming from Dvorak. It got better, and now I only remember Dvorak vaguely. Just give it time.

    As for moving the dash and equals, I've gone the other way and moved them from better to slightly worse positions. This is because I got tired of the national layouts and started using the standard US Colemak. This in itself is quite advantageous so I'm loath to mess with anything now (apart from switching colon and semicolon - I couldn't let that one sit out!). The point about the digraphs is a very good one though.

    The solution would be to implement some transposition keys. Whether you have room left on AltGr or script some extra modifiers, a NumPad (with equals) would help and so would something a la Tomlu's "programmer's pad". Or pretty much anything that makes => and -> smooth digraphs or slides instead of one-finger high-jumps.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 06-Oct-2008
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    Most of the time I use alternative fingering for -=[] keys (I place middle and ring figers on the pair '-=' or '[]') surprisingly it is so easy I have no placing errors. However if changing something to get the minus sign more suitable placed I think of one key upper ' lower - next to the Enter. Where the key next to = would be upper _ lower " Still the latest is used widely in programming but it doesn't go with obvious awkward pair.

    What do you think?

    The only disadvantage of this (which is advantage of classic colemak) is that it require programmatic layout translation, hardware key swap on some keyboard will not work for that.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I swapped the colon and semicolon myself, but came to the conclusion that I'd weather the suboptimal plus sign placement. I think the rest are okay.

    I'm going with making the whole NumPad more accessible through a software solution, and other functionality too. That'll only work in Windows but I mostly work in Windows anyway.

    When I was using a Norwegian layout I often got into trouble with old and/or poorly made programs that expected the layout to be a standard US one. Each time you move anything around, be aware that it will cause trouble - sometimes it's worth it of course.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 06-Oct-2008
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    Yeah, I am aware... but my imagination drives simple solution to all this issues. I think of creating pen drive USB transcoder of keyboard layout, but I do not know if I would be able to home made it as small as I expect. Another option which I just investigate is bluetooth transcoder - I spot bluetooth keyboard from logitech and I just wonder if It is possible to transcode the keyboard layout via some java applet on my mobile phone.

    Does anyone investigeated options to get "hardware" colemak keyboard chiply? I do not mean key caps only.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,371

    The pen drive transcoder is made already, isn't it? Unless you mean something else than PKL by Farkas Máté?

    It can do scancodes too, if you make it.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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