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    Lost all Qwerty skills?

    • Started by juice43
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    • From: New York, New York
    • Registered: 22-Nov-2008
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    Right so as of now after 23 days with Colemak I can type at 45 wpm. The day I started Colemak my Qwerty speed was at its peak 65 wpm. But now it is at a crawl of 15 wpm (I switched cold turkey, and did all the lessons). Should I work hard to relearn Qwerty or what? I love Colemak, and I hate just looking at Qwerty everywhere, but I'm worried about future OS's. I plan on getting Windows Seven eventually and I dunno if a Colemak version will be out for it, since a real one for vista has not happened yet (still in beta, and I have to remap Caps Lock to use it on my cousin's comp). I also carry a portable version of colemak, on a flash drive. My final question is whether I should keep my Qwerty which is already bad, or just forget it? What do you guys think?

    Colemak typist

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Your QWERTY is only slow because you're learning Colemak now, I think. Don't sweat it; I type QWERTY fast enough for the times I can't use Colemak (which isn't very often since I always have my USB stick with me).

    The 'beta' is okay, as far as the MS keyboard layout creator lets it be okay. Remapping CapsLock is beyond the skill set of that application. Shai has been looking into some proprietary software that can apparently do better, but that project isn't finished.

    If you're concerned about the CapsLock, you could always stop using that particular remapping? Colemak doesn't depend on it.

    Of course there will be a Colemak that works on Win7 and other future systems! Don't be silly.

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    • From: Belgium
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    Don't worry too much about using two layouts while you're still learning one of them.

    I ignored Qwerty for more than half a year when I started learning Colemak.  I also thought I would have totally lost my Qwerty skills.  But recently I had to do some "more than occasional" typing in Qwerty, and it worked out amazingly well, and pretty fast, too.

    You won't lose decades of muscle memory so fast. :-)  But you have to give your mind and your fingers some time to get used to Colemak first.

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    If there isn't a Colemak version out for Windows 7 by the time I have to switch I will bloody well code one myself in assembler, nay in _machine code_, if I have to. So don't worry; There'll be a version.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Tomlu (and others), how much do you know of the workings of the Windows keyboard manager? For instance, what exactly does the kbd##.dll do? I'm supposing it gets run by a keyboard process, translates hard scan codes to virtual scan and key codes and sends them on, but I'd like to know more.

    There's keyboard.sys and key01.sys in the system32 dir, but maybe others and I really have no idea.

    Seems it's written in C, judging from the temp files of MSKLC. The new stuff gets written in C# it seems? But this is an old workhorse I think.

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    Dreymar: A keyboard layout is just a dll with a particular function that does pretty much what you say. They're not too hard to write, especially if you start out with some template code and alter that. I'd wager that MSKLC does just that - it would have a template dll with known memory addresses of some static arrays, and it just changes those for each new layout.

    All you need to make one is a C compiler and a Microsoft driver utility library whose name eludes me at the moment. If you want to make one yourself, just scour the web and you'll come up with the info in no time.

    I don't know if, and if so how, the Vista keyboard driver model is different.

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    I use Colemak on my Mac, and QWERTY on my gaming PC, and other than a few minor typos from time to time, using both layouts is not really such a big deal. It's hard when you're learning the new layout, but once you've practised for a while and your typing confidence comes back, your old QWERTY skills should still be mostly intact.

    And seriously, don't worry about future support. There are enough clever people in the Colemak community to solve any problems that might crop up.

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    ghen said:

    Don't worry too much about using two layouts while you're still learning one of them.

    I ignored Qwerty for more than half a year when I started learning Colemak.  I also thought I would have totally lost my Qwerty skills.  But recently I had to do some "more than occasional" typing in Qwerty, and it worked out amazingly well, and pretty fast, too.

    You won't lose decades of muscle memory so fast. :-)  But you have to give your mind and your fingers some time to get used to Colemak first.

    Mmm, it seems I shouldn't worry then about any future support since already people have come with alternatives.  But I only started using a computer for extended amounts of time like two years ago when I needed to start using one for middle school. So I don't really have decades of QWERTY skill, just a couple of years. That's what was worrying me.

    Colemak has a lot of support and a nice large community, so not so worried about the windows 7 thing anymore. Though I do depend on CapsLock as backspace as it really makes things a lot easier for me when I make mistakes, but I see what you mean when you say the layout does not totally depend on it.

    Colemak typist

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    For me, the CapsLock thing became a bit of a hassle when migrating between computers so I stopped using it. I'm sure it's very nice but I'm not using it purely for the sake of migratory convenience. If that were easy to do with MSKLC I might still use it but this isn't the case and according to Michael Kaplan it likely won't be any time soon either.

    Tomlu: The MSKLC is actually just a frontend for a glorified C compiler with libraries, like you say. The program itself is mostly a GUI for editing the .klc file which defines some variables, and then running the compiler to produce the .dll and some other stuff for each architecture (in v1.4). What I'm wondering about is where to read more about it. I know that you can run the compiler from the command line (kbdutool.exe -s -u ... check out the options yourself) to produce source files instead of compiled ones, but I'm not well versed in C so I don't know what to make of it.

    Actually... I firmly believe that doing this you could make the CapsLock turn into a Backspace key and pretty much everything the MSKLC GUI doesn't let you do. In the worst-case scenario you'd have to edit the source files a bit further before compiling. You certainly could make a letter key into Backspace (although it may not be 100% application-friendly since apps don't expect that kind of thing) just by editing the .klc directly and compiling, as seen here:
    https://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/ … 18025.aspx

    Unfortunately, about the only person who could really support this it seems would be Michael Kaplan and he seems to have gotten REALLY fed up with anything that smells of Colemak now, after all the nagging on his personal blog back then. ;) Can't say I blame him, but it is kinda sad.

    We'll figure it out though. I have faith in us!  :)

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    For me, the CapsLock thing became a bit of a hassle when migrating between computers so I stopped using it. I'm sure it's very nice but I'm not using it purely for the sake of migratory convenience. If that were easy to do with MSKLC I might still use it but this isn't the case and according to Michael Kaplan it likely won't be any time soon either.

    You've always got the AutoHotKey option? As you know you could launch it from a USB stick. It could have the sole job of turning the Caps Lock into backspace.

    Tomlu: The MSKLC is actually just a frontend for a glorified C compiler with libraries, like you say. The program itself is mostly a GUI for editing the .klc file which defines some variables, and then running the compiler to produce the .dll and some other stuff for each architecture (in v1.4). What I'm wondering about is where to read more about it. I know that you can run the compiler from the command line (kbdutool.exe -s -u ... check out the options yourself) to produce source files instead of compiled ones, but I'm not well versed in C so I don't know what to make of it.

    I didn't actually think it compiled C source code, I just thought it patched a binary. Since the drivers essentially share the same code except for some static translation arrays I'm sure that would work. Of course, having an embedded C compiler would work equally well.

    To make your own, you need a C compiler like Visual Studio or gcc, the Windows Driver Kit and preferably a sample keyboard driver to work from.

    Unfortunately, about the only person who could really support this it seems would be Michael Kaplan and he seems to have gotten REALLY fed up with anything that smells of Colemak now, after all the nagging on his personal blog back then. ;) Can't say I blame him, but it is kinda sad.

    I'll have a crack at it. Give me a week or so and I'll see if I can't get around to it.

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    I've only ever used Portable Colemak on Windows, now PKL, by the way.

    http://pkl.sourceforge.net/

    I have found it to be the best solution for me. The only time I have to use QWERTY is at the login which is no biggie. PKL is one of the essential programs that binds me to Windows.

    Edit: If you need any help setting it up, just PM or ask on forum.

    Last edited by simonh (12-Dec-2008 22:30:39)

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    I just downloaded the colemak.exe that Ryan Heise has on his website and just put that on a flash drive. It remaps CapsLock and everything so that's really convenient for me. Though the login for my school's computers are in numbers so that's really easy for me to use.

    Last edited by juice43 (13-Dec-2008 00:45:53)

    Colemak typist

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    I use PKL a lot. It's advanced and near perfect - but is it 100% perfect?

    To be honest, I've been thinking about whether PKL might be improved on. It allows you to choose from a set of sending strategies, but none of them are perfect. And it's not exactly slow but it isn't always fast either - I've heard some really fast typists complain. There's also the matter of conflicts with other low-level keyboard hooks, but that's for another day I think.

    If the PKL could be made to use the .dll made by MSKLC instead of an .ini file modified from the .klc file MSKLC uses, and maybe some other libraries used by the MS keyboard manager itself, I think it could've been made more robust and speedy. It'd then be able to hook up your keyboard but send like the system's own keyboard manager - just from a layout .dll of its' own choice instead of an installed one!

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    When I started learning Dvorak I initially lost QWERTY. Once Dvorak became second nature, after typing a couple words I could touch type QWERTY almost as fast as Dvorak (my peak QWERTY speed was 70, because I had a really good typing course. Dvorak I got to 55, and QWERTY dropped to 45). I don't think it's at all hard to have muscle memory for both (and I don't doubt I could have all 3 layouts with equal proficiency given enough time).

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    And it's not exactly slow but it isn't always fast either

    I believe there's a new version of AutoHotKey out with some really major performance improvements (order of 2-3 times faster). PKL users that suffer from performance problems might want to check it out.

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    I was just about to start the same topic!

    after 40 days of colemak, my qwerty is sooo embarrassingly bad. I feel kind of mislead when the faq said switching is easy, because for me it's like learning every key again.

    Hopefully once my colemak becomes flawless it will be more like a "switch" rather than a "re-learn".

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    That's what it was like in my experience. I suppose it might be different for some people, but I assure you you weren't mislead; plenty of people switch seamlessly between layouts.

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    Hi, I can seamlessly switch, I discovered it to my surprise ;) This is like you said, my learning phase is completed (I am only gathering speed) and it is not confusing any more to switch between layouts you know.

    I will say that when you achieve 99% accuracy whenever you touch the keyboard, than you have learned the layout. Many think that they have learned keyboard when they have significant speed, I argue to that.

    Other thing is that I have learned the motor skills of pressing whatever key I want, but I have to think of the layout. It is not hard thing though. I am a bit freak maybe, because I nearly all the time read or watch something or chatting with someone thinking about something else in the background... my head is always full of thoughts ;) 

    Many reports that they touchtype unconsciously (without thinking of any aspect), maybe they are not conscious that they thik of the layout. Brain works in amazing ways, some people are conscious about more of it and some people just live ;-)

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    I haven't said that I currently switch between qwerty and dvorak but it does not matter...

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    Well I currently have to switch occasionally between QWERTY and Colemak, but I find that I can manage a speed of 35-40 wpm. It seems that as Colemak sinks in a little more they start to become more separate even though I haven't practiced QWERTY. Most of the time when I can switch to Colemak I do though because now I can manage a speed of about 60-64 on Colemak. But I think that everyone is right about the time that you spend using Colemak and how it affects proficiency in other layouts.

    Colemak typist

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