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    Testing/Making Layouts--My experiences and some questions

    • Started by klalkity
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    Section 1:  Hello all.  This is my first post to this board, but I've been lurking a while.  It seems like this is the best place to be for people interested in keyboard optimizations.

    A while back I finally got around to looking into Dvorak.  I had heard that it wasn't proven, but that Qwerty was thought to be inferior.  Since then, I've been convinced.  My first reaction was to go with an alternative that would have some chance of being mainstream, so I found two options:  Dvorak and Colemak.  I figured that Dvorak would be much harder to learn and so I looked into Colemak for a bit.  I installed it, gave it a few practices, but I didn't commit to it very much.

    Basically I am a suspicious person when it comes to "optimal."  I have no problem spending large amounts of time tinkering, but I don't want to learn a sub-optimal layout.  I also am drawn to the sort of tasks involved in tinkering with data and the trial-and-error solutions of making a keyboard layout.  So you could say I haven't even tried to learn Dvorak or Colemak, although I typed a few hours on each--I found myself distracted by the opportunity to try to make a "better" layout than either.  Suffice it to say, I can type about 100 wpm with Qwerty and am happy with that, but I would like to become able to type in two layouts, the second being something theoretically ideal--a long term thing, so that perhaps some day I will be able to type faster and more easily in my own layout.


    Section 2:  However, there seem to be several "philosophical" questions about the task of making a "better" layout, as well as some practical ones.  All the remarks below assume we are talking about making a keyboard for typing English, but that assumption alone is a difficult one to make (perhaps an additional question could be--ought we try to make a keyboard layout capable of multiple tasks, multiple languages, etc.?  For instance, Colemak's decision to keep ZXCV in place is a decision to make the keyboard suitable for more than the main task; to sacrifice part of the main task in order to be useful for another.  I will refer to this as question 0.)

    1.  Speed vs. Safety.  Avoiding uneven loads, or loads on the wrong fingers, may be healthy, but it might not always be the "fastest" way to type.  This is a broad question; sub-issues would include:  Is there such a thing as "safe enough"?  Otherwise, ought we optimize one first, the other second?  Etc.  Clearly, safety optimizations lend themselves towards some speed; however, is it okay to sacrifice some safety, so that the keyboard is "faster"?  Should we be content being "as safe as Dvorak" or "significantly safer than Qwerty"; for instance, does Dvorak's pinky load imply that a heavy pinky load is "safe enough" as long as it doesn't exceed Dvorak's?  etc.  I believe that Dvorak perhaps tried harder to perfect safety than Colemak; Colemak is content to match Qwerty in some of these alleged safety dimensions, so lo  ng as you can type fast with it; perhaps consequently, the anecdotal evidence in favor of Colemak's healthiness is not as strong as Dvorak's (perhaps in time it will be).  But at the present some users say that Colemak hurts them, when this has not been an issue with Dvorak.

    2.  Training time vs. Effectiveness.  Note that effectiveness isn't a decided issue; it depends on your answer to speed vs. safety.  However, we must consider that a layout may be great, but very hard to learn (some say this is true of Dvorak).  It is up to us again, to decide whether we should sacrifice some quality so that the required training time is reduced.  I believe Colemak and Dvorak represent radically different answers to this question.

    There are also practical questions that don't seem definitively answered:

    3.  What is the fastest keyboard?  There is no simple answer; "it depends," we say.  We say it depends on how much you weigh "finger rolls", "same finger", "row jumps", and the like.  But this isn't really accurate.  True speed should be calculable.  How much time does a "same finger" cost?  etc.  An accurate time cost can be put on every problem, and then we can find what is the fastest keyboard.  We might find that it hurts your right wrist, and then we will have to think about question 1.  We might find that we can't copy-paste very easily or use other common shortcuts and have to refer to question 0.  Or we might find it ridiculously hard to remember certain keys, or to find punctuation placed so irrationally and seemingly randomly, and perhaps refer to question 2.

    4.  What is the safest keyboard?  We seem to only have speculations as to what is "helpful"; but this question is as answerable and yet unaswered as question 3.  What is required to make a keyboard minimally dangerous?  Perfect balance?  Between fingers?  Between hands?  Some kind of symmetry?  Minimizing combinations that move the hand or wrist?  Until we know the requirements for safety, we can't successfully even think about mitigating safety with speed, or choosing one, etc.

    5.  There is probably some mystery as to what really adds or removes training time.  Colemak seems to have taken an opinion in this regard and run with it, which is more than anyone else.  It's a revolution, but we are far from being convinced we have the complete solution.  Perhaps this is really two questions, or more.  5a.  What keyboard will be easiest for a new typist to learn?  5b.  What keyboard will a Qwerty user be able to learn "fast enough" while still gaining improvements over qwerty.  Of course the philosphical question 2 remains:  How much training time for how much gain?  5c. Could even be for Dvorak users, etc.

    Sorry this post is going so long, but I just feel that I have no answers for any of these seemingly necessary questions; yet many people have made layouts, perhaps by guessing at some of these questions, ignoring others.  I have done no less.  But I wanted to profess my ignorance, before telling you what I did.  I doubt my layout is optimal.  However, I have just as much doubt for every other layout.  Every "authority" seems to come to different conclusions and we have to guess which is closer to the truth, even in issues that should be matters of fact (as explained above).


    Section 3.  My own assumptions and experience:  I think I have been heavily biased by DDvorak site's tool; I realize his algorithm for overall score is no doubt wrong, however, I have largely judged layouts on the individual metrics he offers (though I know they aren't ideal either):  homerow jumps and finger repeats, I have looked to minimize, however I have also looked to keep a "reasonable" overall performance score (basically this means keeping "distance" on the pinkies very low), and decided to keep balance in terms of "distance" rather than "frequency."

    If all homerow jumps were equal (they aren't), finger repeats were paramount (probably not), a "flow" of outside to inside need only be "acceptable" (questionable), and pounding frequency is acceptable so long as pounding distance is balanced (who knows?), then my layout is good, and I'll stick with it.  But there are too many questions, as you can see.

    "Flow", the way DDvorak scores it (not ideal), works on the obsevation that going from weaker fingers to strong across the same hand is ideal.  No layout besides Dvorak seems to really accomplish this.  Therefore I have been content to stick around where Qwerty and Colemak hover.  Colemak actually scores worse than Qwerty in this; my layout is slightly better than both, but no where near Dvorak.

    Dvorak, however, has a lot of right pinky movement.  My layout corrects this.

    As far as home row jumps and same fingers, I feel my layout is significantly lower than Dvorak and Colemak in this regard.  The only other layout I've found to do this is the Capewell layout; Capewell, however, intentionally keeps you on the same hand for far longer than Qwerty or any layout, while mine switches hands, less than Dvorak but more than Colemak.

    I don't really know if sharing my current layout even matters; above are the facts, and questions.  What do you think?  And what tools do you use to test layouts?  Can a windows user run them and tweak them easily?

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    klalkity said:

    Suffice it to say, I can type about 100 wpm with Qwerty and am happy with that, but I would like to become able to type in two layouts, the second being something theoretically ideal--a long term thing, so that perhaps some day I will be able to type faster and more easily in my own layout.

    welcome.  good luck with that.

    your first problem is to define what you consider "optimal".  What exactly is your theoretical ideal.  Then prove that the metrics you are using actually lead you generally in the right direction.

    Dvorak defined what he considered optimal and thus constructed the Dvorak layout.

    Shai defined what he considered optimal for his goals and made decisions based on that through several iterations to produce Colemak.

    Because no one agrees on what are the right or most important metrics,  there are numerous other layout ideas as well (some of which with a little searching you will find discussions of on this forum).

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    I'm sure you realize that your questions have been asked over and over. And they're really hard to answer well unless you spend a few millions on research. No one have done that, and the closest we get are the old Dvorak studies. Even those have been hotly debated as experiment design is a tricky business.

    How do you compare layouts? There's QWERTY that obviously is a piece of crap but people have years and years of experience with it! People can type at 150+ WPM with QWERTY, so saying that it isn't 'fast enough' sounds hollow in that context. So Barbara Blackburn hit 212 WPM on a good day (and 170 WPM on most days) with Dvorak, but who's to say what she could've managed to do with other layouts? And there haven't been a plethora of Barbara Blackburns, even if there are quite a few fast Dvorak typists. But is that a chicken-and-egg problem, since fast typists may be more than averagely interested in learning a layout well? On Colemak, Ryan Heise has done 126 WPM over 2 minutes which is pretty nice for a layout with so few users. My main point is that you can't use those numbers for anything much really, since they aren't statistically significant.

    There's the question of individuality. You mention non-English typists. I and a few others studied the effect of using Colemak in non-English typing and I was pleasantly surprised. I guess Dvorak wouldn't be so bad in that respect either, although I truly hated using the Norwegian Dvorak for typing in Norwegian. Norwegian can be a bit odd, and more Latin languages are easier. Then there's the question of how much each typist would use English vs. non-English; a figure that's bound to vary a lot. There are other individual considerations too, of course. One I've been thinking about is whether fast and slow typists have the same needs at all. Since people do manage to type blindingly fast with QWERTY, apparently its' shortcomings are entirely overcomeable by a dedicated fast typist. They use alternative fingerings and expert techniques of course, and I don't think the same layout is completely optimal for an average and an expert typist. Moreover, I don't think that matters too much for me at least. I'm not looking for a competiton sport, but for comfortable and fast (for me!) typing.

    I've come to distrust metrics unless their usage is tempered with great care (as Shai did). It's easy to put in some criteria and get out not one but a slew of 'optimal' layouts but I think it's very hard to produce actual goodness that way. There are so many quirks to keyboarding that simple metrics don't pick up. Metrics could be done a lot more advanced of course, but you'd still end up with individual preferences ruling the selection process unless you do all that costly research I mentioned.

    Dvorak made assumptions like the others. For instance, he thought very highly of isolating vowels on one side, and of hand alternation. Those seem to work well, but are they optimal? You tell me; I think he overdid it. Many new people here are worried about the Colemak keeping so many letters in their QWERTY positions but to me the mix feels just right. Can that tell you anything? Maybe, maybe not. Dvorak at least did do a lot of research, but I can tell you that Shai and others have put in a fair bit too even without funding. There are a lot of personal calls to be made still.

    Moving between Colemak and QWERTY is generally considered easier than the case is with Dvorak and other new layouts. I think that's a bonus since even with Colemak always on my USB stick I'll frequently run across QWERTY situations at work.

    If you do worry about for instance the ZXCV, then consider how many Z and X you type in an average minute, and try to guess how much impact they have on your typing speed. It's a silly little number, whatever it is. The C and V aren't hard to reach anyway. So why would August Dvorak be so hell-bent on moving them around so that nearly 100% of existing typists would be confused and have a hard time learning his improved layout? You tell me.

    But you'd better tell me with statistics, and for that you'd better be a millionaire with plenty of time on your hands.  ;)

    Your question of safety versus speed is an interesting one. But unless you're typing for competitions (are there still typing competitions outside of a very narrow audience?) I'd go for comfort. If you have one layout with 100% speed and less-than-perfect comfort and another with less-than-perfect speed and 100% comfort, then the former will let you do an hour's work faster but the latter will keep you typing year after year without injury and that wins my vote in the long run! [Yes, I do realize that it's more complex than that: How much safety do you really need to stay safe (obviously individual!) etc...]

    Last edited by DreymaR (01-May-2009 18:06:22)

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    Thanks for the answer, DreymaR.  I was hoping for a response from you.  Clearly no one has the real research, except maybe Dvorak.  But we all have the reasons for the guesses we have taken--and we can share our reasons, and maybe come up with some consensus about the guesses.  The first group of questions really have to do with purpose, and that will never have an answer:

    For instance, do I care about keeping shortcuts on the left side?  No.  Others say yes.

    Or, do I want a keyboard that is safe or fast?  I think speed may offer enough safety; if not I'll try to add more safety later.

    Or, do I want a keyboard that can type other languages decently?  I guess not.  I'll probably never type them; why degrade a great English layout in case someone wants to type French or German on it?  But others could have bigger goals, like to make a layout that becomes more popular than Dvorak; such people might want to make a layout that surpasses Qwerty for as many languages as possible.  Different goals, that's all these are.

    As far as learning goes, I'm not sure Colemak's strategy matters to me.  In the first hour of testing I have been up to 15-40 wpm on my new layout, which seems to only have confusing coincidental similarities to Qwerty.  But I believe that this question we could get more detailed on.  Do you find that keeping a key on the same finger but different hand as your previous layout is helpful?  Or do you find that keeping it on the same hand more helpful?  Or the same "order" on the same hand, for some common combinations?  Or, what else?  Perhaps you guys already have the answers to this decided on, and I should search harder for them.  I would be interested to know which factors people find makes a keyboard easy to learn, compared to their previous layout.  I'm not really interested in a layout being easy to learn for non-typists because I believe that if everything else is done well, it should be acceptable for the non-typists.  But as far as these potential "ease of learning" factors, for switching, I am curious what people think they are, and which they feel are most important.

    Similarly, I am curious what we think gets us the most speed.  What is more important?  Low distance?  Finger rolls?  Low finger repeats?  The "right" load on each finger, or hand?  I believe that as a group we can figure a lot of this out!  It's not as hopeless as you say.  Other committees have figured out which MP3 settings are ideal "for most people"; they didn't have money--they just distributed the research task and got pretty good results.  We can combine our data as well.

    There are many people here who are willing to learn a new layout.  And we could make a layout that makes each possible assumption, and then have each user try it out and report back.  Clearly all the alternatives surpass Qwerty.  We know that Colemak favors keeping hand switching about the same (or even sometimes less) than Qwerty, putting as many frequent keys on the home row as possible, etc.  The next step in our quest to get some answers would be to make a layout that makes one more factor the same as Qwerty, but other than that, accomplishes Colemak's goals.  We would then see "how much worse" it is than Colemak.  For instance, make a layout that loves the home row, has equal hand alternation with Qwerty, equal same finger as Qwerty, but everything else as low as possible.  How does it fare?  That answer would give us a better idea how important same finger is towards speed.

    We wouldn't have to go around making new layouts either.  We can triangulate a lot of the truths based on the existing layouts out there; based on the differences vs. Dvorak, Qwerty, Colemak, and perhaps a few others, we can see "what works."  Each layout makes some things about equal or worse to Qwerty, but massively improves on the others.  Looking at all of this together it should be pretty clear which factors do what--that is, if we have some standard test we can all do with each of them.  If we can agree on some standard we much reach with each layout before we can compare them.  This task doesn't seem like a "million dollar" research task, it simply needs a few ideas and some debate.

    Maybe you guys have already done this, but I haven't found the answers on your forum.  Forgive me if I am missing them.

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    There are many people here who are willing to learn a new layout. [...]

    This task doesn't seem like a "million dollar" research task, it simply needs a few ideas and some debate.

    Debating layouts has little real value beyond a certain point. To evaluate a layout, it needs to be tried out. The required time to truly evaluate a good layout (as opposed to rule out one that doesn't suit you) would be between 1-3 years. No way I'm doing that pro bono. Say I'll learn that layout for, oh, $1000 on the cheap. For each layout variation you probably want at least ten people on it, so that's $10,000 per layout. So depending on the number of layouts you want to evaluate you could probably get away with less than a million, but I guess more than $100,000.

    The next step in our quest to get some answers would be to make a layout that makes one more factor the same as Qwerty, but other than that, accomplishes Colemak's goals.  We would then see "how much worse" it is than Colemak.

    While I applaud your reductionist approach, you assume that these qualities of a layout are orthogonal. I think they are not.

    Look, I don't want to kill your enthusiasm, but if you want to generate some sort of "optimal" layout, you are probably going to have to do so yourself. If you like it and think it's good, try to market it via a web page. It would be great to have some experimental data behind it, but I don't think you will get it for free from the Colemak community.

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    Ten people per layout? Oh no, certainly not. If the current 'evidence' of Dvorak typists versus QWERTY typists is any indicator, then the speed difference between one of the worst layouts (assuming QWERTY really is that) and one of the best layouts (which I believe Dvorak to qualify as) isn't really all that great. I assess that accounting for all the uncertainties you'll have to compensate for you'd need at least 100 people per layout (and even doing that you wouldn't have conclusive evidence but at least a workable argument). There's your million.

    The feeling I (and if I'm to believe what I hear on these forums, many others) have gotten from using Colemak and Dvorak over a couple of years has been that the differences in speed potential and even comfort between the different 'best' layouts you can make aren't all that much. You could make a layout with slightly more potential for one thing or the other, but they'd all basically be 'nearly-best' layouts and measuring the minute differences between them would be very hard I feel. So why not go for more tangible benefits once you're deciding between these 'almost/potentially best' layouts?

    Moving less letters around and thereby keeping both your shortcuts (not only for Windows but for most systems!) and ease of switching temporarily to QWERTY is nice enough, as long as you sacrifice nearly nothing for them! And I'm quite confident that that's the case.

    I'm tiring of all the 'grail chasers'. There's so much energy being burnt off and they all come to different conclusions. Ending up with thousand different layouts so that no layout will win the war against QWERTY is certainly the worst that could happen in my opinion. The 'best' becomes the worst enemy of Good.

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    I understand that the point of Colemak is to get a real improvement on Qwerty to finally succeed where Dvorak has not, hence "easier to learn from Qwerty than Dvorak", "maybe better than Dvorak", "your shortcuts don't move, unlike Dvorak."

    However surely there must be trends.  If all 10 of us found that certain patterns of trigrams mattered significantly, yet none of the current layouts really optimize these, wouldn't that be worth knowing and not really even a $1,000 project to figure out?

    For instance, I've found that pretty much all my fastest trigrams involve 1 finger from one hand, proceeded or followed by 2 keys from the other hand, usually in "proper order."  I found that the "2" almost always ends on the index; these combinations I type almost twice as fast as my average.  If every typist is completely alien from each other then we can never get anywhere, but I'm betting we could find a significant pattern among eachother if we looked at things like this.

    More interestingly, I found that my slowest combinations were about equal parts either same finger or "switch hands twice"; therefore my experience is the same as Capewell's; you can switch hands too often, at least for me.  I type combinations like this significantly slower than my average.  If these two facts were meaningful for many diverse typists, it would then follow that we ought to evaluate layouts in terms of "double switch trigrams" being minimalized and "single switch trigrams" being optimized.  There are some more details to this, but as we are not really talking about doing this, I'll spare you them.  Point is, as a community we could easily have some slightly more advanced anecdotes about what most people seem to type faster or slower.

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    My fastest polygrams, unless I'm mistaken, would be 'arstoien' and 'oienarst'. I believe I made around 240 'WPM' with those once. Reducing that to trigrams, I think I'd do 'rst' and 'ien' particularly well. This should extend to 'rft', 'wft', 'yun' and 'iun' I think, and probably the less intuitive 'rsv' (disclaimer: comfort mapping!) and 'iem' too. Even though the pinkies are weak in themselves, I also think I can do things like 'oun', 'oen', 'aft' and 'ast' very fast. The biggest problem would be trying to sort out awkward movements between pinky and ring fingers, but even there it isn't that simple either. As you can see, none of those are hand-switching at all. I have some fast hand-switching polygrams as well of course - I just happen to like some rolls particularly well.

    This stems largely from the way I hold my hands: Wrists straight, and I tend to rest my wrists on the desk most of the time even if I have a feeling that hovering might be faster overall. A good hovering position would improve the less easily reached polygrams by better accommodating slight twisting of the wrist. I do sometimes hover, but often I'm too lazy I guess. ;)

    Same-key repeats are so bad that I actually toyed with the idea of a 'repeat' key once. On the piano we use two or three fingers alternating to make same-note elements faster and easier to play. But that doesn't seem to work for typing.

    For the time being, I'm much happier optimizing my 'extended' keyboard mappings to make computer life quick and as mouseless as possible. Very happy with parts of it, while some bits still need work.

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-May-2009 00:16:46)

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    klalkity said:

    Do you find that keeping a key on the same finger but different hand as your previous layout is helpful?  Or do you find that keeping it on the same hand more helpful?  Or the same "order" on the same hand, for some common combinations?

    I use a modified version of Dvorak, but until very recently I used the regular Dvorak with no mods.  I only got into 'modding' the layout after I was diagnosed with tumors in my right hand after a bone broke.  Counting before and after the surgery where bone was removed from my forearm to go into my right hand, I was in a cast of sorts for about 3 months; the cast prevented me from using my right ring finger and pinkie.

    I work as a software architect and needed to continue my work during this time, so I researched ways of making it work.  I ended up buying a copy of kbdedit ( http://www.kbdedit.com/ ) and created a layout that I called "Dvorak for 1.5 hands".  I moved the 'h' key (qwerty j) to free up a key on the home row, and mapped 'z' to it, and made z a dead key.  I then took all the alphabet characters that I typed with the right ring and pinkie fingers and mapped them to the exact same movements of the left ring and pinkie, using the dead key.  Some other characters were also moved around, like the 'd' key (qwerty h) was moved, and become the 'enter' key.  I was very pleasantly surprised to find there was very little learning curve and a quick transition time to using the dead key combinations with keys mapped to the same movement of the other hand.  It was the keys that I moved to other movements of the same hand that gave me the most trouble.  I had no real choice but to make the move cold turkey, and within a couple of weeks I was up to 60wpm or so with my new arrangement for 8 fingers.

    That experience got me excited about the possibility of finding a new arrangement that I liked better than dvorak.  Interestingly enough, the thing that brought me to this forum for the first time was when I was researching software to remap keyboards, and in one posting a frequent poster here commented that he was going to look into kbdedit but then never responded again about it.  Anyway, looking at the postings here and information available other places I saw that a lot of research had been done by a lot of people in hopes of finding the 'perfect' keyboard layout.  From what I read, it seemed almost to be an exercise in frustration since so much time had to be devoted to learning a new layout and there seemed to be very little benefit one had over another.  I switched from qwerty to dvorak many years ago mostly because of carpal tunnel pain, and I'm glad I did because that disappeared.  Looking analytically at my use of dvorak, I couldn't think of anything I really disliked about it or that caused me problems.  I have read here and in other forums about shortcut keys being such a problem in dvorak, but I can honestly say that I use all the regular shortcut keys in dvorak without having to put any thought into it, so I give that argument no weight at all.  I do a lot of programming in C#, and took a look at the 'Developers Dvorak' and some other layouts.  Each layout I looked at seemed to have some interesting ideas, but also things that seemed like problems I'd have to remap.  Looking back at Dvorak, I was beginning to see 'I / U' as an easy and good switch, and really liked the 'capslock/backspace' remap of Colemak.  I saw a lot of discussion of L being in the wrong place in dvorak, and too much right pinkie use.  But when I thought about it, I could never remember any pain or typing difficulties I had even when typing for many hours in a day with dvorak; certainly nothing like when I used qwerty.

    Anyway, I ended up staying with Dvorak, but with some mods that sounded good from other layouts or just made sense to me.  I quit looking for the perfect keyboard layout, because I'm convinced such a beast doesn't exist and cannot really be defined.  I think there is a huge area where typing accuracy, comfort, and probably speed can be improved by new keyboards that have better layouts.  There are a lot of alternative keyboards on the market, most at fairly outrageous prices, but I'm sure anybody reading this can think of ways any one of them could be improved on.  Unless a keyboard is a quantum leap ahead of existing keyboards in usability, it will never really catch on and replace the qwerty keyboard, so if you do find your own personal 'magic keyboard' you'd better buy enough to take one with you wherever you need to type.

    Dreymar said:

    Ending up with thousand different layouts so that no layout will win the war against QWERTY is certainly the worst that could happen in my opinion. The 'best' becomes the worst enemy of Good.

    This ties in with what I was saying above.  The best keyboards on the market are an entire league above the standard qwerty keyboards that to this day still look like the old manual typewriters they replaced.  I would argue that the difference between many of these more sophisticated keyboards and the standard keyboards is a pretty similar difference to what many of us see between our preferred keyboard layout and qwerty.  The standard keyboard is still the one almost everybody uses, just as qwerty is the arrangement most people use, in spite of the much better alternatives.  To most people the alternatives are not worth the investment in dollars and time.  To 'win the war against qwerty' you'll have to come up with something that is so drastically better that it causes a sea change in how people enter data into a computer.  Honestly, I doubt that will ever happen with a new keyboard layout, but is more likely to happen with a new method of data entry.  That change will someday come, but for now I think we need to just be happy in our own little section of the world that likes an alternative keyboard and layout, and content that it will never be the most popular in the world.

    Ok, I typed a lot more here than I planned.  I do have one thing to add, since this thread does touch on trying to get people on a new, improved, standardized keyboard layout.  I think the single greatest thing the Colemak community can do to increase awareness of Colemak and get people to try it is to make it seem like an active, growing community.  For example, I have to wonder how many people come to this site because they have heard good things about Colemak, then find that there is only a beta version for Windows Vista available, and that beta has seen no updates in over two years.  Many of those people are going to leave the site immediately, convinced that Colemak must be dead. 

    Thanks,
    Mark.

    Last edited by Nobodo (03-May-2009 03:59:51)
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    Well spoken, Mark. Myself, I've been trying out tweaks and more tweaks and then ended up with the Colemak - with hardly any mods! That passage you quoted from me is a major factor in that decision, together with the realization that all those little tweaks amounted to pretty much nada.

    It is unfortunate about the 'beta' version issue. Since Shai is running this as a one-man effort, it's really up to him. And he hasn't been active in a while; presumably he's busy with "real life".  :)

    Maybe it'd be best for Colemak if Shai included some more people in his project? That'd mean less control but more activity. Of course, Shai has been very open about his work and doesn't try to stop people from doing whatever they want with their keyboards... but the name Colemak is an asset by now and that's his alone. On the other hand, some of us could start up another Colemak site and put all sorts of national layouts, Tarmac etc etc on it. Ezuk, maybe? Then we could also upload a 'less-beta' albeit also less official version! Not sure if that'd be an advantage.

    Myself, I've been working (slowly!) with my extended form of Colemak that has Greek and whatnot under the hood but is still a full Colemak. It's going to see the light of day eventually. I don't use the CapsLock key as a Backspace though, but as an extended modifier (cf. Portable Keyboard Layout). Now there's an actually very useful tweak to make!

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-May-2009 13:05:38)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    It would be nice if there was a fourth forum area that was devoted to various updates on different OS's and and enhancements for various languages and extended forms.   I am not talking about a forum for people to throw up their favorite personal magical new layout,  but where one can find updates about Colemak from Shai or the community of users.   A lot of stuff like that is buried in forum, like Dreymar's mention of his extended form.  PKL,  Russian, Japanese, etc.    It wouldn't be an area for initial questions so much as announcement posts that could have follow up discussion.  I think someone could see more easily see that Colemak is far from dead.   Of course, those of us using OSX or Linux don't think of the Vista version still being in beta as to mean much of anything. 

    Maybe Shai is looking at Windows 7 already ?   After all Vista is pretty much DOA right ?  :-)   
    At least all my small business customers have stayed with XP.

    Last edited by keyboard samurai (04-May-2009 07:03:54)
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    The extra forum sounded like a good idea, so I've added it.

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    Thanks, Shai! And let's remember: Vista itself could be considered 'in beta'!  ;)

    Would it be an idea to move for instance the 'letter frequency vs. language research', 'colemak vim', 'Tarmac' and 'mod your own keyboard' threads to that forum? They're part announcement and part discussion, but that's what a forum is about I guess.

    Last edited by DreymaR (04-May-2009 07:57:28)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    I've moved the topics there. If there's something I missed flag it and I'll move it.

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    whoa!  freaky,  someone was listening. :-)

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    Hello again.  It's been a while.  I thought I'd update you guys a bit.  I have appreciated the level of the replies, and I understand my contributions have been a bit broad and difficult to reply to.

    Right now where I'm at is, not quite "grail chasing."  It's a little simpler than that.  I honestly feel like a layout should do a lot more towards improving speed than Colemak.  In my own investigations, I've become convinced that Qwerty is little optimized, so that, we have a lot of flexibility in optimizing it, hence Colemak, Dvorak, etc.

    And Colemak is impressive.  It's strong in a lot of ways, despite almost not changing hands from Qwerty and keeping almost half its keys the same.  I think this shows just how weak Qwerty is, that you can drastically improve on it even with only partial optimization.  Colemak is also incredibly polished.

    But when I look at what I think would be the most important optimizations for a keyboard layout, I don't believe Colemak persues them at all.  Colemak seems to focus on minimizing consecutive "same finger" and overall distance -- getting damn near optimal in achieving these while only minimally adding to the task of Qwerty users learning the layout.  It's brilliant, but I disagree with the optimizations because I believe much better can be done.  It's only a hunch but I don't feel like (given what has been disclosed of Colemak's design) it's any more of a hunch than what Colemak is built on.

    Personally, I have found (in my own typing), that having a "same finger" with the same trigram is almost as damaging to speed as if it were consecutive.  This means that an entirely new order of changes can be made to fight this, and that in many cases Colemak's improvements may be counterproductive.

    Likewise, I've found that the ideal is to type two letters on the same hand, then switch.  Switching more often slows me down.  Switching less often is okay, provided that I don't run into the above "same finger" problem, or do certain awkward movements that can be ennumerated but they are complicated and ugly-sounding.

    Because of big differences like these, I feel that even if I wanted to adopt a keyboard that was "half like Qwerty", what I would come up with as "fastest" would be very different from what Colemak is.

    Furthermore, shifted keys seem horribly slow to me.  It seems to me like using a dead key for capital letters would be faster than continuing to using shift.  I would demote shift to something as obscure or more obscure than Alt Gr, ideally.  And have a "Th" key.

    I ramble on, but, I remain with the feeling that, while Colemak is admirable, I am not convinced it improves speed half as much as is possible.  When I use Amphetype and I look at my fast trigrams and slow ones, my fast words and slow words, I have to yearn for a layout that makes the slow ones as rare as possible, and the fast ones more frequent.  I don't believe Colemak touches on this.  It corrects Qwerty only minimally, and the results are likewise minimal.

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