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    Need help moving W, F, U, Y

    • Started by lisp666
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    Hello! Thinking about changing to Colemak, but in my particular situation Colemak keys W, F, U, Y are reserved for other things than letters (for reasons that I won't bore you with). Since there seem to be a "rolling-fingers" philosophy at work with Colemak, I'm scared to move them without asking the experts :) Where is the best place do you think?

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    I'm a little confused.  Are you saying you need them to remain in their qwerty positions, but otherwise want the Colemak layout?

    If so, I'm confused because the W is the same in both Colemak and Qwerty.

    And also if so, the layout is quite optimized.  If you force a weak letter like F onto the home row, the optimal layout will be drastically different, because the T will need to find its way back to the home row.

    It's likely your problem can be solved some other way, and I think that's what others will ask you.  Things like, why do you need F to stay there?  And they will anticipate an answer such that they can provide you solutions to your issue while still using Colemak.

    I will be working briefly on what I believe is a good layout with the W F U Y and Z X C V staying in place, while retaining similar Qwerty-esque learnability and distance to Colemak.  If that is indeed what you're looking for, I hope it will be of use to you.  If not, it was all for naught.

    What I came up with is this:

    . W D R J    Y U H P Q
    T S N F L    G A E I O '
    Z X C V ;    B M , K /

    Colemak is still better in terms of my own inhouse metrics (for the most part), and also better in terms of distance, digraphs, etc.  But this is pretty damn good IMO, especially considering it's similarity to Qwerty and having the W F U Y Z X C V held in place.

    Last edited by klalkity (18-Jul-2009 00:25:42)
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    -Sorry for being vague! What I mean is that the key positions that Colemak is using for keys W, F, U, Y is not available for me. Think of it as if I physically removed those key positions - where would I assign those keys instead?

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    So you can't put anything on them at all?  That is quite strange.  What do you currently do?

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    I'm a programmer that after logging all my key presses found out that about 50% of them were cursor movements or edits (yes, it sounds weird, but others have come to about the same conclusion: http://xahlee.org/emacs/command-frequency.html ). Also, I've loaded backspace, delete and return with lots of Emacs smartness (they do situation dependent actions in smart ways) which have resulted in heavier use than any other letter key. So, even if I from a pure statistic point of view should put all those keys on the home row when coding, and an ordinary layout when writing text, I instead try to compromise these two modes in one compromise layout (I don't like to switch). Hence, colemak's W, F, U, Y position are now used by other heavy used 'editing-command-keys'. Which brings the question - where could they go?

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    It sounds like you may be better off learning something like Vim, that way you can type well but also have your commands ergonomic and accessible.  Is this not an option for you?

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    . W D R J    Y U H P Q
    T S N F L    G A E I O '
    Z X C V ;    B M , K /


    Too many digraphs for normal typing (ND, NC, FR, AG, AM, AY, HE, .....)

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    kameloc:  Where the digraphs were sacrificed, it was to improve trigraphs that matter just as much.  Sometimes it's worth it to have some finger digraphs.  I welcome you to offer a layout you feel is more optimized than the one I offered, for the task of keeping W F U Y Z X C V the same as Qwerty.  It doesn't matter anyways, though, because that's not what he wants.  He wants a layout that doesn't use those keys at all.  Making room for 4 keys is pretty rough, but it may be an interesting alternative to modeful editors like Vi.

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    klalkity: No, Vim is surely a fantastic text editor (like Texmate), but none of them come close to Emacs that's an entire 'text editor operating system' with its own built-in lisp-interpreter.

    Maybe I'm still too vague in my question (if so, I apologize). I want a colemak layout, but the positions marked with - in the layout below is occupied. The positions marked with * is still available. Where do you think I should put W, F, U, Y, if you have to choose from the position candidates marked with *?

    *Q--PG JL--****
    *ARSTD HNEIO**
    ZXCVB KM***

    Last edited by lisp666 (20-Jul-2009 00:51:56)
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    Besides being "optimized", "qwerty-like", and having W F U Y unused, what other goals do you have for the layout?  Do you require ZXCV to stay the same, or any other letters?

    I'm pretty sure Emacs has a vi-like mode and can let you rebind keys all kinds of ways, but I don't use Emacs so I don't know.  Honestly, I use arrow keys quite a bit too.  I use the Ins/Home/PgUp/Arrow keys blocks quite a bit, since I am from Windows.

    Putting those keys off to the right will probably be horrible; it will probably be better to move rarely used keys over there, but then you will have to reshuffle around the other keys as well.  A good layout that keeps those keys free will not be Colemak, but I can stir one up if you want.  Because you're moving so much to pinkies, it may very well be worse than Qwerty, let alone Colemak, as far as the typing on it goes.  It may be worth it, depending on how much you use arrows, but keeping it similar to Colemak and/or Qwerty is going to make that even harder.  Why the W F U Y keys BTW?  Y U for left right and W F for Up/Down?  Why not something symmetrical like RTYU, or TYZ/?

    Last edited by klalkity (20-Jul-2009 12:37:49)
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    The Emacs Vi mode is called 'viper mode'. Never used it myself so that's about as much as I can contribute in that matter.

    I'm a Windows user too, but what I do is to use (Colemak) UNEI for an arrow block, LY for Home/End, JH for PgUp/PgDn and :O for Del/Back - just to mention a few of the extended mappings I use. This is similar to what the colemak Vim mappings for normal mode do, and I just have to hold down CapsLock to do it anywhere instead! I find this works very well - even with other modifiers - and intuitively I'd think that this regime would be more efficent than removing and expatriating four letter keys. I have no idea how to implement something like this in Linux however.

    Since Colemak was designed with letter combinations (digraphs and to a small extend trigraphs) in mind, I'm sure any of your modifications would represent a significant loss. I can't imagine it'd be worth it.

    Last edited by DreymaR (20-Jul-2009 15:27:57)

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    Ok:
    1) I've programmed backspace & delete to either work as usual (correct a typing mistake), or to cut logical entites of text depending on situation. It works great and have resulted in far fewer keystrokes. I also use tab for Emacs special (and highly effective) auto-complete. It is used a lot.
    2) After logging all keystrokes, it turns out that the most used keys are right, left, space, down, up, tab, delete, backspace in that order. The most common letter 'e' is far behind any of them. Figures (0-9) are hardly used at all.
    3) The thumbs are strong fingers perfect for modifier keys for instance. To waste both of them on a single 'space' is ridiculous. Therefore, I've (just like Arensito) moved up the home row.
    4) Left and right hand are too close to each other on QWERTY. I therefore move the right hand one column to the right. It's more comfortable, takes stress off the right pinkie, and introduce one extra column between the left and right hand that both index fingers can use instead.
    5) An optimized layout for coding would involve cursor and edit keys on home row. An optimized layout for writing text (emails etc) would probably look something like Colemak. I don't want to switch between two different layouts, so I'm looking for some kind of compromise: use Colemak at a higher home row with the right hand one column to the right, and just exchange some keys in favor of cursor and editing keys.
    6) It turns out that the fastest way to edit text is to use one hand for cursor movement and the other for editing.

    Taking these points into account have so far resulted in:

    * q dl bs p g j * l up dn * * *
    rt a r s t d * lf n e i o * *
    z x c v b k h m * * *
    * * sp ct * rg tb * * *
    (space key is a modifier for both thumbs to reach)

    where dl = del, bs = backspace, up = up, dn = down, rt = return, lf = left, sp = space, rg = right, tb = tab

    It might look strange, but since it is statistic driven, it's remarkable comfortable and fast. Now the question is where to put w, f, u, y? I've no problem with moving zxcv - an optimal layout for life is far more important than some stupid shortcut convention that easily could be reprogrammed anyway.

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    Interesting analysis there, but to me it sounds as if you'd be better off with modal editing anyway? Where Vi and Emacs each have their strengths, the best option might be the Viper mode to get the best of both worlds?

    If you're bent on creating a layout like you're describing, you'd probably be better off using - as Arensito does! - a Kinesis board! That way you can keep your thumbs far busier.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    I have thought about modal editing (as in having a key that switches two different layouts - one with letters and one with editing), but according to my statistics there are quite many situations where the two are mixed every other key press. I'd go insane if I had to press the switch key each time. But maybe I'd change my workflow so that the net effect became positive. Hmmm... Maybe, maybe.

    Yes, Kinesis is great, but it looks like hell, and I travel a lot and need a setup that works on laptops as well.

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    Lisp666, you could easily end up with a layout that has more distance than Qwerty, not to mention pinky distance specifically, if you try to keep the keys the same as Colemak while moving W F U Y.  Everything has to be shifted around, and you're still looking at a layout that has more typing distance than Dvorak, let alone Colemak.  Better than Qwerty, but a lot closer than any other optimized layouts.

    If your keyboard usage is as you say then it still may be worth it, but the optimization is going to have to be from scratch.  I'm working on one assuming you keep the W Y F U unused and the Z X C V in place and keep some other similarity to Qwerty with the distance about as low as possible and other factors optimized.

    But you have to understand why.  Take a key off of the index finger.  Okay, now where can it go?  It doesn't fit with most other keys; they cause conflicts.  So you have to move one of them.  Huge chain reactions start with each key you want to stop using.


    Here is what I've come up with.  It has less frequent slow trigraphs patterns than Colemak and significantly more fast patterns, but a good bit more distance (really unavoidable given your restructions:  unused W F Y U keys and keeping Z X C V the same and similar Qwerty-learnability to Colemak).

    . # R F G   # # L O K J Q ,
    N S D # W   H A T I E '
    Z X C V B   P M U Y /

    You'll have to make your own decisions about how to get a semicolon, colon, brackets, braces, backslash and bar.  Depending on your layout you may also want to get creative to get your comma off the number row (sometimes backslash is there).  Some AltGr will be needed, or dead keys.

    A good option would probably be to switch the number row like Programmer Dvorak.  Put the numbers on shift so you can have the good number row keys as things like parens, brackets, braces, and all that other stuff that had to be gutted, without having to press shift.  You can move the more obscure things to AltGr.

    Toodles.

    Last edited by klalkity (21-Jul-2009 03:27:39)
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    lisp666 said:

    according to my statistics there are quite many situations where the two are mixed every other key press. I'd go insane if I had to press the switch key each time.

    This is similar to what I'm using, and oddly enough I don't feel any less sane than a year ago (but then again, you don't notice those things yourself do you? ... hmmmm ...  :D  ). I don't use mode switching but a modifier though, since as you say it changes back and forth a lot and I'm not a seasoned Vi user (yet) who can juggle mode awareness at a whim. I find that for my uses, pressing CapsLock and then my extended mappings seems very effortless and fast. I even use Caps+Space instead of Enter and Caps+O instead of Backspace quite exclusively rather than making the relatively small pinky stretches to the real keys!

    The benefits of staying in the home position while having the ability to, say, go to the end of a line (Y), mouse scroll (P/T), Page Up/Down (J/H) or select the previous word (Shift-Ctrl-N - not at all as hard as it sounds since you can hit all the necessary modifiers with one flat left pinky press!) with just a key press plus modifiers feels very strong. It has made me use other hot keys much more since I feel so much less dependent on the mouse now. And it isn't just for one program such as Vi, but for nearly everything!

    I believe in keeping symbols, letters and 'action keys' somewhat separate. I don't intersperse the letter block with symbols, even at the AltGr level. And I don't put dead keys under letter keys for instance, but use all the symbol keys instead. And I like to have the 'action keys' on one easily reached 'extend' modifier. Some won't mind intermingling such keys, but I do and I feel that this consistency makes for a more harmonic and intuitive layout. Keeping track of advanced mappings, dead keys and extended mappings is far more advanced than the standard layouts, and I don't want to make it any more tricky than it already is. I'm still working out the kinks in my muscle memory after I moved the extended Del mapping the last time, heh.

    If coding a lot though, you can't beat the efficiency of more advanced features such as those offered by Vi(m).

    Last edited by DreymaR (21-Jul-2009 09:30:12)

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    DreymaR: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It was really interesting. I'm almost thinking of trying out a strictly modal layout as you described. I'm just scared that when in editing mode, the hand that must hold down the modifier will feel "bounded" and eventually develop RSI.

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    I have had that worry, but oddly enough my left pinky doesn't feel tired from all the pressing it has to do in the course of my day!

    One consideration might be that I may have strong fingers, having played the piano and suchlike. It'd be interesting to have more people try this out. I've heard of a few others using similar setups, including the PKL's creator Farkas Máté, but I haven't heard any experience reports.

    Another thought I'm making me is that it isn't the keypresses but the awkward stretches that matter the most, along with key hammering if you have bad habits. The CapsLock is never hammered even when I'm stressed, and the stretch is a small and straight outward one that feels okay to me. Once you strart using the CapsLock for something useful, you're shocked that it wasn't put to good use before as it's a really handy key to reach; this, of course, is already duly observed by Shai when making Colemak!

    The setup saves me a lot of far more awkward contortions: I take care to keep my wrists straight which I believe to be very beneficial. Thus, the stretch to hit the Enter key with my right pinky is no fun at all. Most of the other extended mappings don't relieve stretching as much as hands flying around, which might conceivably make some of your underarm musculature unhappy but I don't think it matters much; thus, these other mappings are for the most part time savers rather than ergonomic wonders. But the Enter key is in very frequent use, so as a rough estimate I'd say that the extra strain I put on my left pinky is more than compensated for by not having to stretch my right pinky down-and-out - literally speaking!

    Last edited by DreymaR (22-Jul-2009 08:51:36)

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    lisp666 said:

    I have thought about modal editing (as in having a key that switches two different layouts - one with letters and one with editing), but according to my statistics there are quite many situations where the two are mixed every other key press. I'd go insane if I had to press the switch key each time.

    Modal editing does not mean that you have to press the switch key every time, since it is optimized for reducing such need. For instance, replacing a single character with "X" is "rX", and you stay into command mode. You can redo the last edit in as many spots as you like by pressing ".", always remaining into command mode. Moreover, in Emacs' Viper mode, you can set modifier based shortcuts for commands as always available, even when into insert mode.

    Here is the best introduction to the power of modal editing: http://www.viemu.com/a-why-vi-vim.html

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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