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    Dvorak to Colemak? If so, why did you do it?

    • Started by spremino
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    • Registered: 03-Jul-2009
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    Hello,

    I've read that some posters have switched from Dvorak to Colemak. Since Dvorak is already an ergonomic layout and by switching to Colemak as an accomplished typist you were not going to gain much, I wonder why you did it anyway.

    Thanks.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    If ergonomy and/or speed are your only concerns, then there's no point. Or if you can't be bothered - Dvorak is a good layout so I don't think anyone will be worse off for sticking to it. Furthermore, my switch from Dvorak to Colemak wasn't too easy: Colemak is designed to be easier to switch to than Dvorak and other layouts that move a lot of keys around... from QWERTY. Since the Dvorak layout was in my muscle memory, a lot of keys did have to move around for me to learn Colemak so that's one advantage lost.

    I do feel that there are advantages beyond the 'coolness factor' though. Have you read the FAQ's points on this? None of those are major points but they do factor in. I in particular was annoyed by Ctrl-W and Ctrl-V being next to each other so I'd close a browser window instead of pasting into it. Furthermore, I migrate a lot between keyboards in my daily work and each time I can't use my own layout I don't have to think so hard about using QWERTY because it's a lot more similar to my own layout!

    Bottom line: If you're really interested, Colemak can be recommended for its advantages even if they are a lot smaller than the advantages over QWERTY. If you're not really really interested, you'll be just fine with Dvorak.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    • From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
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    It's much easier to switch between qwerty and Colemak than between qwerty and Dvorak. I need to do it all the time.

    Last edited by jammycakes (06-Aug-2009 01:12:11)
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    • From: Rockland, Wyoming
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    jammycakes said:

    It's much easier to switch between qwerty and Colemak than between qwerty and Dvorak. I need to do it all the time.

    Agreed. And arguably the same speed and much more comfortable typing is found using Colemak.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Very arguable, that. I'd say that at the end of the day you really can't tell the difference beyond subjective factors. But given Colemak's other advantages - albeit slight ones - over Dvorak, I'm very happy that I have switched at least!  :)

    After all, I changed once so it wasn't too hard to do so again. And typing is something I'll be doing so incredibly much over the course of my lifetime that I'm prepared to put in a little effort to get it right.

    Last edited by DreymaR (07-Aug-2009 07:07:56)

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    DreymaR said:

    After all, I changed once so it wasn't too hard to do so again.

    Agreed.

    Indeed, when I learned Dvorak, it was painful because I was not a touch typist. Now that I'm fluent with it, I see that I can try a different layout pretty easily, just sticking a layout image in front of me. Of course, gaining productive speed would require time.

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    • Registered: 20-Oct-2006
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    It seems like each new layout change is easier than the one before it. That's pretty much the consensus on the forum.

    That said, I'm happy with Colemak, and don't have any interest in switching any more.

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    • Registered: 11-Aug-2009
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    I had only been on Dvorak for like two weeks or so, and I was annoyed by how often I had to press multiple consecutive keys with the same finger.  I pasted several documents that I’d written (there’s one: wr) into that .. uh .. thing on the website .. anyway, and it told me that that phenomenon would be cut in half with Colemak.  So, I decided I still have a month before school starts again, and it only took me two weeks to get comfortable with Dvorak, and it’s worth losing those two weeks to get the best for the rest of my life, and so I went ahead and made the switch!

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    • biz
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    Unix. Programming. Easy to switch if you have to (QWERTY). Nothing more to say.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    A bit more to say, but you summed up the most pertinent points there.  ;)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    I had been on Dvorak for 15 months before I switched to Colemak. My main reason for switching was that the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V keys in Dvorak were really REALLY getting on my nerves. Half the time I was using Ctrl/Shfit+Insert, and then half the apps I was using weren't supporting these keys.

    In my job(web development) I actually have to copy+paste a lot, so any benefit I saw from Dvorak was extinguished by not being able to copy text with my right hand on the mouse and left on the keyboard shortcuts.

    For general ergonomics, Dvorak felt a bit more comfortable, but Colemak is the most productive layout I've dealt with so I intend to stay with it. Speedwise, I type 80WPM on all 3 layouts, so comfort and convenience are the deciding factors.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    If you're anything like me, Colemak should become more and more comfortable until it's as nice to your hands as Dvorak was - unless my memory of my Dvorak days fails me.

    Try using my PKL 'extend' mode a bit as that really helps production! Getting arrow keys and a bunch of other editing tools to the home position has felt very productive to me; a bit like Vim's goodness spreading to the whole GUI (now, if I could only get Windows to understand RegExp...).

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    BinarySplit said:

    I had been on Dvorak for 15 months before I switched to Colemak. My main reason for switching was that the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V keys in Dvorak were really REALLY getting on my nerves. Half the time I was using Ctrl/Shfit+Insert, and then half the apps I was using weren't supporting these keys.

    In my job(web development) I actually have to copy+paste a lot, so any benefit I saw from Dvorak was extinguished by not being able to copy text with my right hand on the mouse and left on the keyboard shortcuts.

    I am all for using Colemak, but...  If you're already using the mouse for selecting, it's easy enough to right-click to get the dropdown menu for cut/copy/paste.  Since you're sticking to the same input device (mouse, trackball), there is no speed penalty.

    Ctrl-X/C/V gets competitive (i.e., becomes a true "shortcut") only if you are also selecting with the keyboard.  (Ctrl-X/C/V with the left hand is actually unhealthy in the long run.  Striking two keys simultaneously with one hand is one of the tickets to RSI.)

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    ds26gte said:

    I am all for using Colemak, but...  If you're already using the mouse for selecting, it's easy enough to right-click to get the dropdown menu for cut/copy/paste.  Since you're sticking to the same input device (mouse, trackball), there is no speed penalty.

    On Unix/X11 this is so much easier: select to copy, and middle click to paste.  No switching between mouse and keyboard, no dependency on the keyboard layout, and thank god, no clicking around in context menus. :-)

    ds26gte said:

    Ctrl-X/C/V gets competitive (i.e., becomes a true "shortcut") only if you are also selecting with the keyboard.  (Ctrl-X/C/V with the left hand is actually unhealthy in the long run.  Striking two keys simultaneously with one hand is one of the tickets to RSI.)

    I fully agree.

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    I've got to put my opinion on this forum post.

    I have been Qwerty the longest for about 12 years only got to be 60 wpm the fastest for me. With Dvorak 70+ wpm and now with Colemak even FASTER!! I will like to break 100+ wpm barrier. Have broken it before but not consistently.

    I felt with Dvorak layout I was typing more with my right hand and not a good balance of both hands. Also felt that my pinky finger was doing a lot of unnecessary work.

    I am glad I switched to the Colemak layout.

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    I'd say that my main reason for not sticking with Dvorak (aside from those mentioned in the FAQ) is that Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider and I doubt it can be improved much at all.

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    simonh said:

    I'd say that my main reason for not sticking with Dvorak (aside from those mentioned in the FAQ) is that Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider and I doubt it can be improved much at all.

    Could you please explain what you mean with "Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider"? Since current standard keyboards are designed after typewriters, I think both layouts share basic limitations.

    Thanks ^_^

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    spremino said:
    simonh said:

    I'd say that my main reason for not sticking with Dvorak (aside from those mentioned in the FAQ) is that Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider and I doubt it can be improved much at all.

    Could you please explain what you mean with "Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider"? Since current standard keyboards are designed after typewriters, I think both layouts share basic limitations.

    Thanks ^_^

    I'm no expert.. but I think he means that, things like hand alteration were very important in a typewriter because pressing keys took a LOT of finger strength it practically took the whole arm to strike a key. Its not practical to focus on handrolls on a typewriter, where in a soft touch keyboard, its very important. (hand rolls are typing clusters of letter in one go... things like "one, ast," etc.

    I would no doubt argue that Dvorak is hands down the best layout for a typewriter. But for a modern day keyboard, Colemak makes much more sense.

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    spremino; As Liquid_Turbo has stated. Thanks Liquid...

    "It is an undoubted truth, that the less one has to do, the less time one finds to do it in." - Earl of Chesterfield

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    spremino said:
    simonh said:

    I'd say that my main reason for not sticking with Dvorak (aside from those mentioned in the FAQ) is that Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider and I doubt it can be improved much at all.

    Could you please explain what you mean with "Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider"? Since current standard keyboards are designed after typewriters, I think both layouts share basic limitations.

    Thanks ^_^

    I'm old enough to have had to use a typewriter in school (and what was essentially a typewriter on computer card punch to make cards for creating a computer program to batch submit to a card reader tied to a mainframe). 

    Believe me even powered typewriters are quite different than modern computer keyboards.

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    I used Dvorak for just a little while.  It made my right hand pinky hurt.  I had switched from Qwerty to prevent impending carpal tunnel so I wasn't happy to switch one problem for a different one. 
    Been using Colemak for a couple years now, very happy.  Never did attain my previous speed (because I've never studied and done drills like I did when I was younger with Qwerty) but I can type probably 80wpm or so without thinking about it, and nothing hurts.  It isn't a problem in my life any more.

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    simonh said:

    I'd say that my main reason for not sticking with Dvorak (aside from those mentioned in the FAQ) is that Dvorak was designed to be used on a typewriter. Colemak had no mechanical limitations to consider and I doubt it can be improved much at all.

    Copy what you wrote on to this site http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ & see what you get as the optimum layout.. I did and it came out as Programmer Dvorak.

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