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    Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    • Started by bombadil
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    03-Sep-2009 13:09:06#1 Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    I got used to colemak placement of L but somehow find it not comfortable - on laptop and MS4000. The stagered rows make it ackward for combinations of L and E. Just recently I thought that there is no penalty with swapping L with M. Thus LE and EL becomes very comfortable, however EM and ME is also common.
    Other rolls also seems to appear equally often: MU, MY.

    For me the real ackward thing is EL(, LE is somewhat easier). Does anybody here have statistical data if the swap could make sense - thus if EM is less frequent than EL?

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    07-Sep-2009 12:52:45#2 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    I'm not a Colemak user, otherwise L placement would bother me, too. Maybe it's just the way we are used to position our hands over the keyboard.

    IMO, your own comfort is what matters the most. If ME and EM are more comfortable to you than LE and EL, than do make the swap. Not all bottom keys are hard to reach. As long as you don't change the finger, finger load does not change. Here you can find statistical frequencies of letters in English:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency

    I find Colemak's K position more comfortable than M's one, therefore I'd swap L and K.

    Last edited by spremino (07-Sep-2009 14:07:51)

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    08-Sep-2009 19:25:48#3 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    Hmm, I have tried it one evening but do not even get used to it. Hovewer later on I thought that it is not worth relearning. All in all I am sure that I will finally make myself a gift buying Maltron or Kinesis ;-) It's a pity they cost so much.

    Thanks

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    08-Sep-2009 19:38:06#4 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    Indeed they are the real deal when it comes to ergonomic keyboards.

    I considered buying a couple of them, but I've read, and I believe it, that then you quite lose your ability to type on standard keyboards, and since I'm an heavy laptop user...

    Since you are interested, here is a licensed (cheaper) Maltron replica, the Ergomatic:

    http://www.teleprint.com/

    Last edited by spremino (08-Sep-2009 19:41:09)

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    08-Sep-2009 19:55:20#5 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    Looks really interesting but I am afraid the keys might be muggy membrane. Have anyone tried it?

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    10-Sep-2009 08:45:59#6 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    I don't see the problem with either of the digraphs EM, ME, LE, EL on Colemak. Both involve two dexterous fingers and flow well for me.

    I'm wondering whether you may have a problem with your wrist angle? That'd make those digraphs a lot more awkward than they have to be.

    Last edited by DreymaR (10-Sep-2009 08:46:50)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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    20-Sep-2009 11:28:36#7 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    Yes it depends on my wrist angle, but I would like to keep them stright - when I bent wrist a little the EL, LE becomes smooth digraph. To make my wrist stright and type this digraph comfortable I have to keep my elbows very tightened to the body - looks like I am too broad-shouldered man for typical keyboard :(

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    21-Sep-2009 10:07:02#8 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    I keep the wrist straight through that digraph, but the arm moves upwards slightly. I find that better than compromising the wrist or move my elbows toward the body. The index and middle fingers will touch, and the middle finger is quite curved. That shouldn't be a problem for the dexterous middle finger, I think.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    21-Sep-2009 20:34:21#9 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    In that point I agree, middle finger seems strong enough. Maybe my fingers are still not so dexterous like fingers of seasoned typist - I touch type for less than 2 years, mostly programming. When I am watching seasoned typist I can see that their fingers do also lateral movement, my fingers still do only vertical movement - for the rest I have to twist or move my hand. At least for the index fingers little twisting comes natural - thats probably why touch type was invented this way with two columns for index fingers ;)

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    27-Jan-2010 21:12:03#10 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?
    spremino said:
    bombadil said:

    All in all I am sure that I will finally make myself a gift buying Maltron or Kinesis

    Indeed they are the real deal when it comes to ergonomic keyboards.

    I considered buying a couple of them, but I've read, and I believe it, that then you quite lose your ability to type on standard keyboards, and since I'm an heavy laptop user...

    I've gotten quite used to the Kinesis Contoured ("Advantage"? -- why'd they change the name?), and can still easily type on a "regular" keyboard as well. The only difference between them now for me is, it's *much* more obvious how uncomfortable the regular kind are. After a while of using the Kinesis, it really starts to make you wonder why regular keyboards are all slanted to the left. It seems to be like that for no reason at all.

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    28-Jan-2010 12:09:14#11 Re: Problems with L - maybe swap with M?

    Indeed; it's the old hammers of mechanical typewriters that we're still struggling with.

    As I've said repeatedly elsewhere, I feel that I've solved most of the problem without having to bring around my own hardware: On a 102-key keyboard, move the ZXCVB keys one step to the left but still use the same fingers to hit them with. This allows you to keep your wrists straight and it's so easy to get used to that 'anyone' could do it if they could be bothered (which most aren't). The upper row isn't really a problem I feel.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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