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    Two Ergonomic Issues On Normal Keyboards Cancel Each Other Out

    • Started by SpeedMorph
    • 6 Replies:
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    • Registered: 08-Mar-2008
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    With typical typewriter-style keyboards, there are a few problems. Fingers are not all the same length, so why do they have to be in a straight line? Also, the keyboard is so close together that typing on it requires bent wrists, thus leading to RSI.

    Or does it?

    I find that typing with arms and hands in alignment, pointed towards the keyboard (making a triangle, roughly equilateral), solves both of these problems. Wrists are straight, to help prevent RSI. Also, every finger but the index is now in its natural alignment. Because fingers in the middle are higher up than the index and pinkies, if the arms are sideways, it allows middle, ring, and pinky fingers to rest naturally. However this adds a bit of stress to the index finger, especially when hitting T and Y (QWERTY positions), which is why I find these positions to be excessively difficult. A more natural position for the index fingers in this position would be on C and M.

    But despite the index problem, this alignment works very well for me. I did not even notice I was doing it until I read something about how normal keyboards cause wrists to bend and I noticed that my wrists were not bent.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I too hate typing the G (QWERTY T) in particular; ever since moved the B one key position to the left the G has probably been my least favourite key. For some reason the J (QWERTY Y) doesn't feel as bad.

    I too type with straight(-ish) wrists and the arms/wrists roughly parallel to the keyboard pitch (that is, the Z-R line which is X-R on my board, and on the right hand the M-N-L line). It feels right to me, but my speed isn't excellent so I won't claim expertise.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 03-May-2008
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    That's a fair point about the slant/finger length. It reminds me of a keyboard that had a really cool idea to exploit this feature named A4tech (I think Kensington and some others licensed it). Unfortunately, it hasn't really caught on and there are only so many of models of keyboard with it... all with the same somewhat mediocre key-switches, AFAICT, and no mac native layouts. It looks like this:
    KL(S)-5UP-1.gif

    If *I* ran a keyboard company, I'd do one with that slant and the keypad on the left (but chop up the BACKSPACE key into the '|\' key and CAPS LOCK in the NE corner with Colemak layout for the rest... whats up with '\|' and INSERT mixed into the tiny control keys??! Hello??!) The big Enter I picked up fairly quickly, and agree is a win for speed. Kind of like this one, only better:  http://www.a4tech.com/ennew/product.asp … =12&id=200
    KBS-29-1B.gif

    Still even stepping down to a sloppy action $10 keyboard with this layout from a higher quality notebook keyboard, my speed went up! I think there are possibilities and notebook manufacturers should look into it, personally. I don't use one currently, as I prefer a mac specific layout in the control key area and frankly, better action. But very good ideas here otherwise, I think...

    (EDIT: added 2nd image) BTW, you can barely tell by the reflections in the photo of the black one, but as you were saying with the index finger being stressed slightly from a farther reach, they have slightly rounded those exact keys down the centerline, to fractionally reduce the index finger's travel distance (convex vs concave, like some MSFT ergo keyboards). Or at least they did in the cheaper model I tried. Somebody was thinking! ;)  To be clear, I'm not really recommending this product, but value some of the theoretical ideas behind it.

    Last edited by swarmofkillermonkeys (08-May-2008 23:43:45)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I've seen the top one, and got the exact same impression of it as you did it seems. Interesting concept maybe, but hard to evaluate since the actual keyboard seemed poorly made.

    For me personally, moving the keys around to make a physical Colemak board has become a bit of a hobby. Obviously, this kind of board unfortunately does not indulge my preferences at this point.

    I have a keyboard with one messed-up key position: In my case it's again the |\ key, but moved to the top row where it takes half of the old Backspace key's area like you suggested. It probably doesn't affect typing speed or overall comfort, but it's really annoying every time I have to stop and think about it! As are the frequent errors using that key. And I don't feel I need an even bigger Enter key than I had beforehand, so the gain is zero. If only the moved key was an additional one, then I could've had some fun with it!

    Once I get used to it a bit, I type just fine but still feel the annoyance at having to think about the misplaced key. And then when I go to another keyboard the problem is reset again. Argh!

    Overall, I wouldn't recommend fiddling with the positions of single keys. It just creates confusion and irritation for all those who use different keyboards during the day.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 03-May-2008
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    DreymaR said:

    For me personally, moving the keys around to make a physical Colemak board has become a bit of a hobby. Obviously, this kind of board unfortunately does not indulge my preferences at this point.

    Just to see how a Colemak layout would look with this type of keyboard that I was trying to describe, I was curious:
    2478234364_5414cc8b53_o_d.gif
    A silly waste of time, I know but this would pretty much be my ideal for a laptop keyboard. Relabeling the keys digitally is probably the only option here; you're right about that! (that's Caps in the upper right below F15, some software still uses it  on the mac, like Photoshop). Now with a straight wrist angle, and good layout, if it was only scalloped like the Logitech Wave...

    Oddly, everyone seems happy with the new uncomfortable-looking flat, square Apple keyboards. I don't get it (at least not after 1 minute of fake typing in an Apple store), but maybe it takes time.

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    swarmofkillermonkeys said:
    DreymaR said:

    For me personally, moving the keys around to make a physical Colemak board has become a bit of a hobby. Obviously, this kind of board unfortunately does not indulge my preferences at this point.

    Just to see how a Colemak layout would look with this type of keyboard that I was trying to describe, I was curious:
    https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2370/24 … 53_o_d.gif
    A silly waste of time, I know but this would pretty much be my ideal for a laptop keyboard. Relabeling the keys digitally is probably the only option here; you're right about that! (that's Caps in the upper right below F15, some software still uses it  on the mac, like Photoshop). Now with a straight wrist angle, and good layout, if it was only scalloped like the Logitech Wave...

    Oddly, everyone seems happy with the new uncomfortable-looking flat, square Apple keyboards. I don't get it (at least not after 1 minute of fake typing in an Apple store), but maybe it takes time.

    Well I wouldn't say they are any better or worse, they're just keys. But they have a disadvantage in that you can't take them off and rearrange them.

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    SpeedMorph said:

    With typical typewriter-style keyboards, there are a few problems. Fingers are not all the same length, so why do they have to be in a straight line? Also, the keyboard is so close together that typing on it requires bent wrists, thus leading to RSI.

    Nope. Good typists don't bend their wrists while typing. Look for videos of typist working on typewriters (there is a video on Youtube about Barbara Blackburn).

    Last edited by spremino (27-Nov-2009 11:36:16)

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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