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    International characters

    • Started by jpierre
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    • Registered: 11-Feb-2010
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    I regularly use the computer to write in English, Spanish, French, Perl and Bash. I want a better keyboard layout that allows me to write all those languages relatively easy. I'm in Switzerland, and got used to the local QWERTZ layout. I've used a few different layouts throughout my life, and I'm not afraid to try a new one.

    I started using Programmer Dvorak a few weeks earlier, but I found it clumsy for international text. I hate that since I really need to type fast in all the languages. Previously I would switch between Latin American and Swiss layouts to get productive. Fortunately mostly all keyboards are good for English.

    I just left Programmer Dvorak behind and returned to my local layout. Simplified standard Dvorak is out of the question, since is even less friendly to international typing. Spanish Dvorak isn't good to type in French, and the French Dvorak is a completely different array, that could probably work to type in Spanish, but doesn't seem to be good enough.

    Sure I can modify a layout, but then I have to maintain it for Linux, Windows, and I'd be on my own for pretty much everything. That possibly would lead to a great waste of time.

    I'd like to know about someone with similar concerns, and if they are using Colemak, how has the international typing experience played out so far. If it's good, I sure as hell will go for it.

    Last edited by jpierre (11-Feb-2010 09:16:40)
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    The special characters on Colemak resides, as you very well might know, on the same positions as on the US QWERTY. If you find that sufficient (like I do), programming should be no problem.

    About internationalisation: depens on how much and how formally you need to type in them. I suppose both Spanish and French looks similar enough to English to be feasible. In fact, from my own French typing experience, that is kind of comfortable, except for when you have to reach for Q. But it can't be worse than QWERTY.

    Spanish (after some test copying a wikipedia article) seems possible too. The downsides of Spanish on Colemak seems to be all the accents, as áéíóú are accessable with alt gr + letter, and ñ through alt gr + n.

    If you can cope with that, I'd suppose it's worth a try at least.


    (And I'm sorry if my post is all messed up, I'm in kind of a hurry and got too little sleep.)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    I'm not much for the standard international solution in Colemak except for occasional use. I've done some modifications for myself, awaiting my big and always delayed project of a multiscript layout:

    - I use the VK_102 key for my most-needed special character (in my case the Scandinavian 'ø'; in French probably 'œ'?)
    - The next needed chars are under the [] keys (and if necessary, take the /\-= keys as well!) as AltGr mappings
    - Diacritics are based on the *nix Compose key mappings, also as AltGr presses: Diaeresis on the ;: key, acute on the ', etc etc.
    - You'll probably want to keep such keys as ç on AltGr-C as they're handy enough. I have þ/ð under T/D since I need those a lot.

    For specific coding needs, you could try an underlying Extend mode like what Tomlu and others have used. Haven't got much experience with those myself. Also not sure how to handle multiple shift states in Linux so maybe you'd have to use the AltGr ones there.

    As far as international typing in general is concerned, Colemak is surprisingly good! Search the old topic on key frequencies by Checkit if you're interested, or read up on my part of the research. You could even use my spreadsheet to assess your individual key frequency needs although it'd be tentative at best.

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    • From: New York, New York
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    How convenient, I too type in Spanish, English and French. I find that mostly Colemak is definitely better than the alternatives for international typing too. Spanish works mostly except for reaching for q which is more often and same finger increases thanks to the popularity of the ue combination. It is also more common in French. What is nice, unlike Dvorak is that h is not messing everything up. It's also very nice to have finger rolls in French in Colemak. As in Spanish. Writing bien is amazing in Colemak. Just putting that out there. Colemak is very convenient really. It may not be optimized for it, but it definitely works and I don't feel the need to learn more than one layout (Colemak, excluding QWERTY of course which I still have to use sometimes).

    I don't do any programming so I don't know how inconvenient Colemak would be for Bash and Perl.

    Colemak typist

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    I don't think the Q stretch is bad myself; are there any particularly uncomfortable digraphs with Q in? Keep in mind though that I keep my left hand wrist straight (which you should!) and if you don't then the stretch to Q is much worse.

    The UE digraph can be slid. Unless your physical keyboard isn't good for sliding downwards on, it isn't all that bad either.

    The placement of the H was pleasurably noted in the letter frequency topic as you may have seen. Yes, it helps the non-English colemakers which is nice.

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    Warning: In the first few paragraphs I talk about Programmer Dvorak, not Colemak.

    I find that I really don't care much for the special characters used in programming. If they are in the same place we find them on a standard US layout, that's pretty much OK for me. With Programmer Dvorak I find myself doing lots of combinations of Compose and other two keys. I mapped Compose to be the 102nd key.

    For accents in Spanish isn't that bad, except that it relies heavily on the left pinky finger, because the accent key happens to be the one exactly next to 102. For ñ is very awful, since I have to do compose, then Shift+~ (the key just under Esc), and then n. That takes 4 keystrokes, although I don't have to do single-hand combinations, which makes is still nicer than typing it with the Swiss layout.

    For some French accents, it's just as bad as ñ, for example, both grave accent (`) and circumflex (^) are to the very far edge of the keyboard, and only accessible through Shift combinations.

    Dvorak interational seems to be at least as bad a Programmer Dvorak. I don't get why they have qualified it of international, since you can't type fast Spanish on it, which happens to be the second most used language of the western world, and the third on the planet.

    Now I will talk about Colemak:

    For these keys I see Colemak has a nice combination of AltGr plus some key at the left of the keyboard. For ç I can use AltGr+C. For acute I go for AltGr+T, then the character I want to accentuate. for grave it's the same but with AltGr+R instead of T. For ñ it's just as bad as Programmer Dvorak, and for circumflex it's almost as good as for grave and acute.

    These combinations seem much better than the Programmer Dvorak ones, which use a Compose key. But I'm not quite convinced yet that it represents any improvement over the localized QWERTY/QUERTZ/AZERTY versions for Spanish and French. That's exactly what I want to know from someone with experience with standard Colemak and who types regularly on any of those languages.

    Last edited by jpierre (12-Feb-2010 09:38:01)
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    • From: Belgium
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    jpierre said:

    For ñ it's just as bad as Programmer Dvorak

    ñ is also available as AltGr+[n].

    Here's an overview of Colemak's AltGr mappings: https://colemak.com/Multilingual

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    ghen said:
    jpierre said:

    For ñ it's just as bad as Programmer Dvorak

    ñ is also available as AltGr+[n].

    Here's an overview of Colemak's AltGr mappings: https://colemak.com/Multilingual

    That's very true, but I didn't mention it because it's located at the right of the keyboard. AltGr is to the right of the keyboard, and it doesn't play well with keys at the same side because I can't keep both hands on their natural typing positions to type the combination.

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    • From: Belgium
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    What finger do you use for AltGr?  With the thumb, I find it combines well enough with the index finger staying in the home position for n (especially with a Colemak-wide layout).  Much better than AltGr+[~] anyway.

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    ghen said:

    What finger do you use for AltGr?  With the thumb, I find it combines well enough with the index finger staying in the home position for n (especially with a Colemak-wide layout).  Much better than AltGr+[~] anyway.

    I use the medium finger to press it when typing normally, and the thumb when using same-hand combinations.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    If you try the Wide ergonomic mod, it's quite easy to press AltGr with your thumb and AltGr+n is a very easy combo. It's what I'd do without the mod as well, but the mod makes it easier.

    Last edited by DreymaR (12-Feb-2010 15:00:00)

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    • Registered: 05-Jan-2010
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    As I've played piano, I don't find the thumb-to-altgr-stretch hard to do at all, and it works well with ñéíó and ú. Á too, of course, but that's not a same hand combination.

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    My keyboard is a standard American laptop keyboard (except that it is Colemak!). It does not have an Altgr button. However I do type a lot in Germanic languages, which require êëé etc. Currently I must switch my keyboard over to NumLk, then type Alt-136 or whatever, then switch off numlock again.

    Is there an easy way for me to change one of my Alt keys to Altgr?

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Have you tried using LeftCtrl+RightAlt? It should work in most cases I think, but I haven't tried any ANSI boards myself.

    I use mostly PKL to impement layouts these days, and you can fairly simply get what you want there. I use a Compose-alike setup where the ' key does acute accent, `+~^ their respective accents, comma cedilla and colon diaeresis (all as dead keys). Wouldn't be too hard to make a setup like that for MSKLC so it could be installed as a normal Windows layout either. If you use any other OS, it's mostly just a matter of editing a file too (but I'm not so well versed with those).

    Another way is to simply make an AutoHotKey script - search the AutoHotKey help files.

    Last edited by DreymaR (26-Feb-2010 09:49:47)

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