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    Thumbs-Up layout(s)! Taking vertical keyboards for a test drive.

    • Started by cevgar
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    • Registered: 04-Feb-2010
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    Thumbs-Up layout(s)! Taking vertical keyboards for a test drive.

    If you've been exploring egronamic keyboards online, going a little deeper than those "Natural" boards they sell in stores, you've probably run across some pretty... unique specimens. Some make us laugh, some make us drool and some make us scratch our heads in absolute confusion. For the last, I am of course referring to the SafeType, accordian style vertical keyboard.

    SafeType.jpg?dl=1

    Honestly, the thing looks so bad, it has to be good. Kinesis charges an extra 200 USD for the Freestyle Accent accessory that lets the Freestyle do the same thing. Who has the money to burn for that kind of experiment? Of course if you had two compact boards lying around you could probably work something out. Assuming you don't, I give you...

    The Key-tar! (demo version)

    key-tar1.jpg?dl=1

    If the image didn't load, try refreshing. It will make things easier, even if in retrospect the graphic isn't as clear as it could be. Oh, well.

    For simplicity's sake, since this is only for test driving vertical ergonomics, I'm going to describe the easiest implementation. If you like the effect, you can move the rest of the board around easily enough, as I have done with my other layout suggestions. Getting a Key-tar with the fewest changes, as in the above image, basically means rotating the left hand letter keys 180 degrees around the S key (qwerty D). Do not mirror flip. The final layout should have the Q and B in swapped positions, and will have moved 14 letters. Again this is a layout independent mod.

    Once this is all done, you still have to type with it. I probably don't have to explain this, but I will anyway. Handling is more like a chapman stick than a guitar, straight up and down instead of diagonal. (The other, perhaps more applicable names just didn't hold water. Keyman-stick? Key-aphone? O-board?) Hold it upright against your chest, Esc side up, resting the new 'bottom' (Enter side) on your right leg or between your legs, whichever is more comfortable with your board. With the keys facing away from you, use your standard home letters and play! -er... type! Whatever. For improved handling, I recommend replacing ESC with shift, F1 with Backspace, F2 with Control and then Control with Esc, Shift with F1 and Caplock with F2.

    You're probably not going to break any speed records with this setup, and the ergonomics are still somewhat questionable. That having been said, it is pretty fun to use. Train your self up with KeyHero and let me hear any vertical keyboard success or horror stories you have to tell! I warn you that if they involve either PowerPoint presentations or laptops, I will probably laugh at you.

    Last edited by cevgar (04-Apr-2017 20:38:25)
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    Hands, meet Too Much Time.  :)

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    I unfortunately cannot use the key-tar type layout with my keyboard because I use a laptop. (Well, I suppose I could . . . but that would be pretty dangerous.) It looks like a lot of fun though.

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    Are you actually trying this out cevgar? To me it looks like the left hand would have trouble with the ridge and F key row on most keyboards.

    Could be interesting if you were to wear your keyboard like a tie! Otherwise, when I'm sitting in a couch with the keyboard in my lap the 'piano style' still seems most comfortable from the looks of it.

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    Heh, no I don't think it would work for a laptop. I still might be tempted to try if it had one of those pivoting screens.

    Ok, guitar style is misleading. The board needs to be VERTICAL. It can slope back towards yourself, but the thing should be aligned with your spine. Wear it like a tie? That is a very good analogy. An adjustable neck strap would be ideal. You should NOT try to wrap your palms around the sides of the board to support it. Simply place them on the key side and press toward yourself just enough to hold it there. Also, holding the keyboard in the Frets on Fire position would probably break your wrists in short order. To simplify:

    YES! Except with a keyboard, not a washboard.
    CAJUN%20WASHBOARD%20TIE%20(example).jpg

    NO! This position doesn't even work that well for FoF, so forget typing.
    Frets_on_fire_man.png

    I'll admit I was worried about the F row myself. Since then I have tried it out, on three different boards (IBM SK-8811, Adesso WBK-4000US, Logitech Y-RQ57). Once I figured out how to hold it, I found the F row was really not that bad. Actually, it is something of a bonus. The left thumb Shift/Backspace/Ctrl combo is delicious. Now those media keys and wrist rests, those are a problem.

    While it is still uncertain if vertical is more ergonamic than desktop arrangements, where heights and tilt can be nicely adjusted, personally I find vertical is more comfortable and stable than the weird tilts, bouncing and sliding I get when lap typing piano style. Unfortunately, this is somewhat dependant on the length of your board and how deep the seat is. While sitting on a chair or the floor, vertical is fine. Sitting on a nice plush couch and a full board darn near takes my head off.

    As stated before, I do recommend playing around with the keys if you want to keep it.

    Last edited by cevgar (19-Feb-2010 21:48:54)
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    Are you still using this - is it comfortable for long hauls?

    I've tried very crudely hanging the keyboard off of me, below the belt, with the base of the keyboard facing the thighs and the space bar topmost under my chin.  That is quite comfortable.  Though it is a little close to the groin.

    I like your variation.  It would be nice if the keyboard were rounded like a clarinet... possibly...

    Last edited by pinkyache (22-Oct-2010 18:54:37)

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    Unfortunately I made the mistake of 'upgrading' to a Goldtouch adjustable split keyboard very shortly after posting this layout. Biggest time waster since some idiot gave word processors 'font' capabilities. Anyways, I haven't been able to play around with any of the fun layouts since, this one included. (If anyone has been wondering why I haven't come out with any new ideas, well now you know.)

    Still, lack of actual data or facts has never prevented me from having opinions before. So, while this layout is a lot of fun, I can't recommend it 'long haul' for one reaso-... two re-... several reasons.

       1) First, and most importantly, is the mouse. Unless you are lucky enough to own a trackpoint keyboard (touchpad tend to be placed below the spacebar and increase the depth of the board too much to be comfortable), this layout DRASTICALLY worsens the already poor ergonomics for switching from typing to, er, mousing(?). Depending on your setup the vertical keyboard MAY allow you to place the mouse closer to your right hand typing position than you could get otherwise, but unless you have developed a vertical mouse, switching between the two will require a 90 degree wrist rotation. That reeks of RSI. Sure, you could try working the mouse with the bottom of your hand, but I'm not sure how to avoid the 'Hulk SMASH' effect you'd get when trying to click on anything.

       2) Bad wrist angle when using the number pad and special keys. Combined with the mouse ergonomics, this makes for an awful layout if you need to do any work with spreadsheets, or databases, or number heavy coding. Correct that, any sort of coding. Or filling in online forms.

       3) Despite giving more mouse room, overall, it sucks for games. Try it. Oddly enough, this is actually the best proof I've found that vertical layouts are not easier on the body.

       4) Not all discomfort is physical. Trying to explain what you were doing with your keyboard to your boss or coworkers could be pretty awkward for everyone involved.
       

    If you are still interested in messing around with it, you might want to experiment one of those flexible silicone boards. Assuming you mean a convex board instead of a board with rounded edges, shape the clarinet like frame you were describing, then glue/velcro the board down. Personally I don't think it is going to work out very well. By making a convex keyboard you are increasing finger travel distance, and making the keys slope away from your fingers is going to encourage more wrist movement. A having the board bloat at the middle might cause wrist extension as well. You might be able to avoid some of these by shifting right hand position up a row (moving the number keys to the bottom row) thereby putting both hands over the 'hump' of the curved board. On the other hand, you could try rolling the board inward and duplicate a maltron. Roll it up tight and you might even get something on par with a datahand.

    So anyways, if you go through with it make sure you let us know how it works out.


    EDIT: BTW, I would probably look into getting one of the keyboards pictured below instead of messing around with curve.

    41FX4XBnWGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

    Last edited by cevgar (28-Oct-2010 13:55:24)
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    You talked yourself out of it!  I think there are some good ideas in there.

    I found the thread as I thought someone might have a safetype, or mangled their goldtouch into the thumbs up position.

    I wanted to know if the vertical felt like an improvement over the horizontal.

    Last edited by pinkyache (20-Jan-2011 12:55:16)

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    Back to your point though, I'd have thought some kind of low resistant rocking buttons could be a winner.  The tactile feedback of silicon boards probably wouldn't do it for me.

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    Low-resistance rocking buttons? Are you referring to the DataHand, by any chance? That looks really good to me (but I myself am still trying to make do with already available hardware layouts).

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