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    Why has there been NO NEW DEVELOPMENT on colemak for OS X?? Or at all?

    • Started by colemacuser
    • 23 Replies:
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    • Registered: 24-Apr-2010
    • Posts: 2

    Colemak is without a doubt the best keyboard layout available. For its merits it should replace QWERTY in the mainstream. That being said, why is no one doing anything about it?? No one is excited about it, no one is out there promoting it, and no one is developing it!!
    It works okay on windows, it barely works right on linux, and it's totally crippled under Mac OS X.
    In OS X you can't use the capslock as backspace without even more third party software, which rarely works well, and it screws up every keyboard shortcut. Could someone PLEASE work on developing a version that works??
    What happened to colemak? I had such high hopes for it... But it seems to have gone the way of the ZIP drive...

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    • Registered: 05-Jan-2010
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    The Colemak community is generally regarded as the loudest among keyboard layouts. That adjective is not used in a positive way regarding communities (it's like, why do they talk so much, is it to compensate for a worse layout?), so i do not recommend more promoting than we already do. But we're, as far as I know, growing exponentially, so your worries are unfounded.

    Also, as a user of all the operating systems you mention, including OpenBSD, I have to disagree about your latter statements too. It works great under Windows, great under GNU/Linux, great under *BSD and also OS X (which I'm using right now).

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    • Registered: 24-Apr-2010
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    kqr, in all my years on the internet I've seen a ton of mentions of the dvorak layout and its derivatives, and maybe... two about colemak. When I found it I was specifically searching for new layouts, having already known about dvorak. So really don't know how that could be true, but I'll take your word for it.

    And I don't know what you're talking about about the OS's either... Yeah, it works the best in Windows, but I tried it in Ubuntu, and there were sooo many glitches and little bugs with it... I spent several hours working each one out trying to get it to work right, and at the end of the day I just gave up because it still wasn't quite right. And as for OS X, that's my primary OS too, and IMO it's the worst for colemak too. And it really isn't surprising, it hasn't been developed for like 4 years.

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    • Registered: 05-Jan-2010
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    Yes, the size of the Colemak userbase is still small, compared to the Dvorak or Qwerty one, obviously. Also, Dvorak has been around for much, much, much longer and is also recognised as a layout by ANSI, which contributes to more people knowing about it. But for it's size, the Colemak community is extremely noisy, and we're on the upswing. I've converted two or three people in the four months I've used Colemak. That's at the very least one new person every two months. And if everyone is like me, that's a doubling of the userbase every two months. That'd mean that in December, there would be sixteen times as many users than in January. I suppose that's untrue, and after a while you deplete your reserve of potential converts, but to show you how rapidly it may grow.

    What kind of glitches did you encounter in Ubuntu? (I suppose you're talking about the Xorg implementation here.) And how is the OS X implementation of Colemak bad? The only thing that's not working absolutely perfectly on my OS X is the backspace. Which works just as it should with Colemak, but when i switch back to QWERTY it still erases (when it should, according to someone, become a caps lock). But that's fine with me. Nobody should feel the need to use caps lock anyway (most useless function on the keyboard, residing at one of the most useful keys? No thanks) and to have the extra backspace on QWERTY too is not a bad thing.

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    • From: Berlin, Germany
    • Registered: 13-Mar-2010
    • Posts: 17

    I think the Mac implementation works well, but it does suck that you have to "hack" the system a bit for it to work properly.  It seems the Colemak community is constantly growing, but I'm disappointed that we don't have any new stats (that I've seen) for 2010.  I wanted to try to promote it, but without that kind of basic support, it becomes very difficult.  What worries me most is that the iPad doesn't have hardware support for Colemak and there is no way to add it without jailbreaking the device.  I love Colemak, but I'm finding it very difficult to promote.  That's saying something considering I have quite a lot of experience and training promoting Esperanto which one PR consultant told me was one of the most challenging ideas to promote that he ever heard.  I have to wonder if Colemak is harder!

    Learn Colemak, no download necessary: www.learncolemak.com

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    • From: Belgium
    • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
    • Posts: 482

    Most of the implementation problems (on any platform) are limited to the Capslock->Backspace remap, just because many systems don't readily support/expect that mapping.  Other than that, Colemak is "just another" keyboard layout, and works just as well as any other.
    It works perfectly for me on NetBSD (natively both on console and in X11) and on Windows (with pkl).

    Stats being "basic support" required to promote Colemak?  Do you have any stats on Dvorak users, or users of any other keyboard layout?

    iPad "hardware support" being critical for Colemak's success?  Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.  And if you buy such a locked-down device, it's what you get.  (and you can't touch-type on a touch-screen, anyway.)

    You must be trolling...

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    • From: Berlin, Germany
    • Registered: 13-Mar-2010
    • Posts: 17
    ghen said:

    Stats being "basic support" required to promote Colemak?  Do you have any stats on Dvorak users, or users of any other keyboard layout?

    iPad "hardware support" being critical for Colemak's success?  Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.  And if you buy such a locked-down device, it's what you get.  (and you can't touch-type on a touch-screen, anyway.)

    You must be trolling...

    Ha, I wish I were trolling... but I guess I'm just an iPhone/iPad developer who types Colemak.  You can hook up a physical keyboard to an iPad either via Bluetooth or by USB cable if you have the camera kit accessory.  Then you can choose to use Dvorak if you want, but not Colemak (you can't even choose Dvorak if you don't have an external keyboard connected).  Once I get some stats on an estimate of the number of Colemak users, I plan to write Apple to ask them to add support for Colemak to the iPad at least for external keyboard support.

    By stats, I mean like this post for 2008: https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=597

    Learn Colemak, no download necessary: www.learncolemak.com

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
    • Posts: 358

    OS X layout has been working so well for me that I don't even think about it.  DoubleCommand takes of the backspace without any glitch, I haven't missed not having a Caps Lock.

    I'm still puzzled why on devices with virtual keyboards, I don't have complete control over the key layout.  It seems really stupid.

    :-) I should just be able to press on the space bar long enough that all the keys start jiggling and then I drag them around with my finger to rearrange them the way I want :-)

    come on Apple, get with it!

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    • Registered: 20-Oct-2006
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    keyboard samurai said:

    :-) I should just be able to press on the space bar long enough that all the keys start jiggling and then I drag them around with my finger to rearrange them the way I want :-)

    Seconded!  Of course, I'm okay with iPhone OS devices using QWERTY, since I can type equally well on both layouts, but it would still be nice.

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    • Registered: 07-Aug-2007
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    ghen said:

    (and you can't touch-type on a touch-screen, anyway.)

    Screen keyboards have one thing going for them: You no longer need keychords (the simultaneous pressing of multiple keys, as with Shift or Control) -- the chief source of stress. 

    To type uppercase B, you press Shift, drag finger to B, and release!  Try that on a "real" keyboard!  :-)

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    ds26gte said:
    ghen said:

    (and you can't touch-type on a touch-screen, anyway.)

    Screen keyboards have one thing going for them: You no longer need keychords (the simultaneous pressing of multiple keys, as with Shift or Control) -- the chief source of stress. 

    To type uppercase B, you press Shift, drag finger to B, and release!  Try that on a "real" keyboard!  :-)

    Still you can't touch type properly, without getting the tactile feedback of more... physical buttons.

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    • From: Belgium
    • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
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    ds26gte said:

    To type uppercase B, you press Shift, drag finger to B, and release!  Try that on a "real" keyboard!  :-)

    Wow, how slow is that? :-)

    But the point was mostly (and you confirmed it with this example) that you have to look at the keyboard at all times.  Touch typing is impossible.

    Last edited by ghen (27-Apr-2010 07:02:19)
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    ds26gte said:

    Screen keyboards have one thing going for them: You no longer need keychords (the simultaneous pressing of multiple keys, as with Shift or Control) -- the chief source of stress.

    No keyboard driver forces you to use key chords. Have you ever heard about "sticky keys"?

    Dvorak typist here.  Please take my comments with a grain of salt.

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    • Registered: 20-Oct-2006
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    Yeah, that's that feature I keep accidentally triggering on Windows machines that prevents me from typing properly again until I restart the computer.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    Korivak: You can turn it off. And you can do whatever it is that turned it on (holding down a Shift key for 8 seconds?) again. No restart required.

    I always turn off all those "accessibility" options. I'm annoyed that they're activated by default, but I guess that's to ensure that people know about them.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
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    kqr said:

    Still you can't touch type properly, without getting the tactile feedback of more... physical buttons.

    What if each virtual key gave a little different buzz,  so you could say that feels like a "B".    or at least T an N gave your index fingers an extra tingling.    I could see that happening....  some thing better, more nuanced than the haptic feedback methods used today.

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    keyboard samurai said:
    kqr said:

    Still you can't touch type properly, without getting the tactile feedback of more... physical buttons.

    What if each virtual key gave a little different buzz,  so you could say that feels like a "B".    or at least T an N gave your index fingers an extra tingling.    I could see that happening....  some thing better, more nuanced than the haptic feedback methods used today.

    Possible I guess, but then you'd need to actually type a letter to get the sense of where you are. And also learn the distances between keys and other things you don't think about normally. The sensitivity of the fingertips is extremely developed.

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    • Registered: 31-Mar-2010
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    I would rather try some form of Morse code blind. For instance two large panes (for dits and dahs) and a few buttons (at least space and backspace).

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    Actually I've been thinking about morse code input myself. I don't think it would be practical to do it the traditional way, with keying of any sort. At least not while on the move. Your idea of separade buttons though, might be possible.

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    • From: Belgium
    • Registered: 26-Feb-2008
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    kqr said:

    Actually I've been thinking about morse code input myself. I don't think it would be practical to do it the traditional way, with keying of any sort. At least not while on the move. Your idea of separade buttons though, might be possible.

    Rockbox, the firmware I use on my iPod, has morse code input as an option.  It's certainly faster than selecting letters with a scroll wheel. :-)

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    That's kind of awesome, actually.

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    My dad's using Rockbox on his iPod, I'll have to try the morse code input there to see if it actually works. (My iPod is unfortunately a generation 6, so I can't try on my own.)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    If you're going to do something weird, go all the way and learn stenotyping or some other form of optimized fully chorded input. That way you have a shot at doing 300 WPM or so, which is just awesome. If you're going to spend a lot of energy on learning an alternative form of input, I don't think it'll be easy to beat that.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Belgium
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    DreymaR said:

    If you're going to do something weird, go all the way and learn stenotyping or some other form of optimized fully chorded input. That way you have a shot at doing 300 WPM or so, which is just awesome. If you're going to spend a lot of energy on learning an alternative form of input, I don't think it'll be easy to beat that.

    Now that we're drifting off-topic anyway, here's an innovative input method that requires a pointer device (or even just eye movement) only: Dasher.  You enter text by continuously zooming into boxes with letters, sized relatively to their likeliness to follow the previously entered letters.

    WPM will suck, but for severely disabled people it can be a really useful (and fun!) way to produce text.  Try it, you'll get the hang of it after five minutes of practicing.

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