About lack of 'bites'. Few people have Maltron keyboards, or have an interest in something that involves hardware modifications such as 'adding keys'. If you are interested in thumb functionality, you might want to look at my Toss the spacebar layout, and then continue work from there. Beyond that, considering this is the COLEMAK forum, most people here will probably advocate using a layout similar to colemak and as such will not, under most circumstances, jump at any sort of dvorakisms like left hand vowels. But hey, we are all for alternate layouts. Give us something to work with though.

It's certainly true that few people are interested in going beyond the limitations of the keyboard design that is given to us.
@cevgar - I've read all about your toss the spacebar mod! I think it's a great idea. The only real thing holding me back there is that my Cherry keyboards have the standard (annoying) row stagger for the numbers. I considered turning the keyboard upside down, but the F keys weren't quite where I would want them. Actually, my Logitech Illuminated would be great for this mod, since the number row has the same stagger as QWERTY and is more symmetrical than is usual. I would just want to add some extra material to the keycaps for the thumbs.

@pinkyache - have you seen the frogpad? This kind of chording with modifiers could be pretty cool I guess.

RE: Design goals. I've been thinking about which keys on the keyboard I like and also the kind of motions that I like. I would alternations + rolls from index to middle, middle to index, or ring to middle, for the most part. My idea is to roll towards and away from the keys for the middle finger. So put e.g. vowels like

**o* ** *u**

**a* ** *i**

where those are the top two rows of the keyboard. Perhaps I'd move u because that's too good a spot for it. For digraphs that are common in both directions I'd make them alternating or on middle-index. For others I'd try and make them rolls. If I go to the central columns I want to be typing a digraph.

So many possibilities...

I have to say, my finger does occasionally get crampy from the scroll wheel. I then use page up/down instead. How about a trackball? might feel very holistic since you would flow to the modifier direction.  Or a full arm joystick.

I have a couple of layouts here for assessment! I decided to see how Colemak could be changed if 'e' was on the thumb. This let me get H on the home row and also put D on the bottom row index, which is one of my favourite spots to roll to. I can also roll from C to H now.

qwfp b    j luy;[]\
arst g    m nhio'
*zxd k    v c,./

Enter e  Space

Enter and e are on one thumb. Space on the other. This already scores better than the Maltron layout at http://www.codesharp.co.uk/dvorak/. Actually, I would put left and right shift on the thumbs and make shift+space enter. That helps even more.

I took a few minutes to try and improve the score. I moved zx back to pinky-ring and put b under the middle finger

qwfp j        luy;[]\
arst g    m nhio'
zxbd k    v c,./

Shift e  Space Shift

I would go one step further and make 2 A keys (moving Q) and O keys (moving ;) to give the pinkies an easier time of hitting these vowels. On my cherry boards I can easily mod 2 keys -> 1 bigger key, and adjust the force required to press it. But this is an experiment for later.

Here are some stats using A Radley's code and the first part of Huck. Finn. For now just call the first layout Cole-e and the second Cole-e-shift

Total effort
         Rank - Improvement Over worst - Effort
qwerty    7    0.0 %    145,706   
Dvorak    6    18.7 %    118,401   
Colemak    5    19.5 %    117,338   
Maltron    4    24.6 %    109,875   
cole-e    2    25.6 %    108,401   
cole-e-shift    1    32.2 %    98,729   

Distance
Layout    Thumbs    Left hand    Right hand    Total   
Qwerty    0.0 %    46.2 %    53.8 %    1,195 m   
Dvorak    0.0 %    38.3 %    61.7 %    685 m   
Colemak    0.0 %    49.7 %    50.3 %    629 m   
Maltron    1.6 %    41.0 %    57.4 %    570 m   
cole-be    1.6 %    49.8 %    48.6 %    561 m   
cole-e-shift    11.9 %    43.9 %    44.2 %    518 m   

Same finger
Qwerty    3.8 %   
Dvorak    2.0 %   
Colemak    1.3 %   
Maltron    1.3 %   
cole-be    0.8 %   
cole-e-shift    0.6 %
The worst same finger is 'cl' since it has a home row jump.

Same hand - 18-19%
Same hand + row jump - 0.9%
Outward rolls - 11%

I'm at work so I can't do much more for now, but let me know what you think of the layouts, and where there could be improvements. Do you think they are better than Maltron?

Try writing "Huckleberry's human" with that.  ;) [Then again, writing "Europe's euphoria" in Colemak is equally amusing"]

This is a bit of a off topic, but I feel that someone should point out that the codesharp layout analysis tool isn't completely reliable for nonstandard layouts. Example:

Layout        Thumbs  L. Hand    R. Hand    Total
Qwerty        16.7 %    45.2 %    38.1 %    51,178 keys   
Dvorak        16.7 %    37.7 %    45.5 %    51,178 keys   
SDDvorak    16.7 %    39.2 %    44.1 %    51,193 keys   
Colemak        16.7 %    37.5 %    45.7 %    51,178 keys   
Workman        16.7 %    41.1 %    42.2 %    51,178 keys   
Maltron        26.5 %    34.0 %    39.5 %    51,134 keys

RE:Codesharp. Unfortunately, it's the only analysis program that allows me to put keys on the thumbs. With the others I need to hack it so that 'e' is excluded. I think that you can only optimize with code to a point, though, and that the last tweaks require a human to really see what is awkward. The analysis program says that this Colemak mod improves upon Maltron. But does it really?

As for whether the thumbs can handle the load. I use space on my right thumb, usually, but play games with jump on the left. I think that both are ready to handle 1 key. As for others - you have a point. I was thinking of building up slowly. Eventually I will make my own keyboard, but at first I will probably just assign 1-2 keys to each. In total the thumbs will still do less than the index fingers and I would consider keeping it that way. I don't think that the arm is able to help them as much.  I would expect them to, at the very least, be able to handle more load than the pinkies. As it stands they do less.

A key point here is the ergonomics of the buttons. We normally hit spacebar perpendicular to our thumb joint. That's not helpful. I really would prefer a more natural angle. If buttons hurt me, the first thing that I will do is make more ergonomic ones and try again.

I was hoping that you would post, Speedmorph! I have visited your website a few times and read your posts about optimizing for an ergonomic keyboard. Is your code also able to evaluate the Maltron layout or similar?

I fear that you are correct regarding the way that we use our thumbs to hit keys on a flat keyboard. I am still wondering whether I will mod my existing keyboard with thumb keys or start from scratch. Unless the angle is right then I wouldn't want to load them with more than your suggestions either.

I had another idea for a layout. The posts here and at geekhack about chorded keyboards and dead keys made me think that the limitation of low same finger could be eliminated if the thumb were to act as a dead key. Put e.g. t and h above one another. If I have to hit 'th' then type 't' and then the thumb, or chord them. Similarly for 'ht'. The thumb would be a wildcard key.

You could put all your favourite letters in prime locations and not worry about the most common digraphs, since they would be rolls towards the thumb. This would have a learning overhead, but may have a high top speed ceiling.

Potential advantages:
1/ All keys still physically there - you don't HAVE to chord. Easier to learn than e.g. Frogpad
2/ Possibility for fast rolly typing
3/ May be possible to avoid central columns - make use of the numpad?

Assuming that it is possible to implement such a setup, can anyone see a fatal flaw here?

Hi everyone,

Sorry to drop in unannounced like this, but as the old saying goes, I was just passing by and I heard some interesting things being talked about.

My name's Joe and I'm a court reporter in Perth, Western Australia, and because of my work, audio transcription at the speed of spoken word (120-180 words per minute), ergonomics and "keyboard efficiency" are pretty high on my list of desirable Christmas presents and I like to follow up every possible avenue to see if there's something I've missed.

I'll say up front that I use neither Dvorak nor Colemak, but have used a Maltron (using the Malt layout) since about 1986.  One reason I never used these two layouts is because at the time I was learning Maltron (I'd learned QWERTY in 1967) I was working as a "temp" legal secretary and found myself going into various offices, sometimes at an hour's notice, to help out with word processing.  I was thus changing keyboards almost on a daily basis, and, as you probably realise, even when only using one layout, not all keyboards are the same.  Because Maltron was such a different type of keyboard, I found absolutely no clashing of "mental gears" between Maltron and QWERTY, but I thought that with learning Dvorak (I hadn't met Colemak until late last year, 2010, when I started researching more deeply) on the same "flat" keyboard, it could cause difficulty, with no tactile feedback.  However, even after 25 years, I can still use QWERTY, but choose not to, as I'm now self employed, and if other people do wish to employ me, it's on my terms, ie, using Maltron, and my own software, more of which anon.

As noted in a previous post, the Maltron website

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info.html

has a couple of interesting pages to read, including the academic papers by Lillian Malt and Stephen Hobday (for those of an inquiring mind), and also a couple of word lists, which give interesting data such as the number of different words that can be typed using only the "home row" keys on both Maltron

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/word-lists.html

and QWERTY.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/wo … ayout.html

It seemed to me that the greater the number of words that could be typed, the lesser amount of travel by hands and arms, with reduced fatigue and chance of injury.

However, the Maltron website did not perform the same analysis for either Dvorak or Colemak, so in order to obtain a more balanced picture, I performed the "home row test" for all four keyboards, using the one word list.

As observed previously, on the Maltron keyboard the E is considered a home key because it is activated by the left thumb, with the right thumb hitting the space bar.

Based upon an international Scrabble word list of 172,807 words, the following figures were derived.

QWERTY - 198 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

DVORAK - 3126 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

COLEMAK - 5963 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

MALTRON - 7639 words can be typed without taking the fingers from the home keys.

The actual word lists for each keyboard are available on this link:

http://mostergonomickeyboard.blogspot.com/

A couple of points which perhaps I may be able to clarify for you.  The OP's comment re the Z and L (and the Q and P?) Keys and the difficulty in using the pinky finger.  Many years ago I decided that that was possibly going to be a minor problem, so instead of using the pinky, I use the ring finger(s) for those four keys, since it's very unusual to have digraphs of "ZL", "LZ", "QP" or "PQ".  I believe this also will address the comment about typing a double "L".  It is a moderately common digraph, but in fact the "L" is not on the home row, so in order to type it, the hand must leave the home row in any case, so to move the ring finger into position is no great difficulty.

I would submit that the many subtleties of Stephen Hobday's execution of Lillian Malt's idea are not truly grasped until, like almost any keyboard layout, one has become very familiar with it.  These subtle features include angle of each individual key as it meets with the digit.  For example modifying a standard keyboard to make use of the thumb to strike "E" won't necessarily replicate "Maltronic" motion of the key, since on the "flat" keyboard the space bar merely moves up and down, in the one plane, which could possibly result in a suboptimal performance.  Further, as well the angle of individual keys in relation to the fingers, each key is at a different depth within the 3D matrix, catering for the differing lengths of each finger.

I found pinkyache's comments pretty well spot on

I think it odd that people are more obsessed with an optimised layout on the standard keyboard rather than creating an optimised ergonomic keyboard.

That's been pretty much the story of my life since working in public with the Maltron.  Many people express interest, but virtually nobody will even bother to step outside the box!  Oh, I'll stick with what I know, thanks, and they stop complaining about the pain in their wrists (although obviously the pain will still be there.)

I make these comments, having read your thread, to perhaps either (a) save you time in trying to make an unacceptable adaptation or (b) give further inspiration to try something better.

If you are interested, this link

http://mostergonomickeyboard.blogspot.com/

is to my blog where I give a much more detailed analysis of what I consider makes for a truly ergonomic keyboard.

As you probably realise, there's more to an ergonomic keyboard than just the distribution of the letters.

Again, you may or may not be interested in this blog

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com/

where I address the efficient/ergonomic use of software, in particular word processing and high speed audio transcription.  It probably won't be of any benefit for games or programming, but for many other uses ... well, I'll leave it up to you. 

It's almost the same experience with Maltron, when people see me keying in shorthand.  Once they find out they have to stop using MS Word, the shutters go up, and they go back to pounding the keyboard, virtual manual labour.

One of the unexpected spinoffs I found to using this shorthand style of typing was that if, for example, I was chatting to someone on line, I could do my typing using the wordprocessor and all its functions, then I created a simple macro, which selected the entire text, saved it to the clipboard, and then I pasted it into my chat page. Very speedy way to chat.  ;-) 

Anyway, just dropped by for a brief discussion on a topic which seems to be of mutual interest.  If you have any questions about the Maltron itself (though obviously not in respect of Colemak) please feel free to contact me either via this board, or send me an email.

Ciao,

Joe

PS If you are interested in single handed keyboard, Maltron does a very nice matching pair, for either hand, which I'm currently trying to teach myself how to use with the shorthand described above.

PPS In respect of the question of "cost" of the Maltron, I'd have to say that I bought my first one in 1986, and I'm still using it (without any breakdown) in 2011, so taking the cost over 25 years, I doubt whether you could buy ANY keyboard for such a small price, especially given the amount of work I do on them.

Luckily, I've got four of them, I couldn't survive with out them.

J

Nice writeup Joe(proword), look forward to exploring your links.

@erw, what's with this obsession with laptops?  Darn things crippled me.  How about pairing a tablet with a Maltron over wireless instead?

If you glance at geekhack, the majority appear to shun their laptop keyboards for something bigger and better.  I wish I had something like a happy hacker ten key less, that I could throw in a bag.

I'm salivating at the idea of one handed Maltron and shorthand.

@proword have you ever tried the Datahand or have you been blissfully happy with your Maltron since 1986?  I take your point about cost, sounds like more of a sound investment than some people's computers.  Right now I'm struggling to put food on the table - but if I get some spare cash...  I bet they aren't built now like they used to...

As far as quality goes, the Maltron still uses Cherry keyswitches, the heart and soul of the keyboard.  Secondly, because of the very complex curvature of the shell, it's not possible to have them "robot" assembled, and they are still being assembled (by hand) in the UK where they started out.  Thirdly, each keyboard is built to the individual's requirements re key layout, whether trackball included etc.  Hence the seemingly high price.

Living in Western Australia, it took several weeks for my single handers to arrive from the UK, but it was worth the wait.  I've now got 6 keyboards (including the two single handers) and have never had a problem with any of them.

Initially the soldering and wiring was done by Pam Hobday, in a shed in the back yard.  (My first keyboard is one of hers.) 

Getting slightly off topic I've met both Stephen and Pam Hobday on a couple of occasions when they visited Perth.  He was born in 1916, and his mind still buzzes with all sorts of ideas.  I received a "Christmas letter" last year, and they celebrated their Silver Wedding anniversary by taking a cruise down the Danube!!   An amazing couple.

So in answer to your comment, I think this one case where they're still built "Like they used to ..."  :D

Joe

I'm not sure why you'd think that.  I take it with me everywhere my lappie goes.  ;)

Joe

There was some talk a few years ago about Maltron producing a keyboard with the computer actually built in, and perhaps a flip-up laptop type screen, but I think it died of natural causes. 

Joe