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    Several Questions

    • Started by Legolan
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    • Registered: 05-Jun-2011
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    Hello,

    I hope this in the correct forum; please move it if it is not.

    I have a few questions. This is a fairly lengthy post, but I hope that I have organized it so it should be readable. 

    A bit about my typing history: I poke typed on the QWERTY keyboard until 18 days ago, when I began attempting to learn the Dvorak keyboard at the same time as I learned 8 finger (plus thumbs) typing. Before switching to Dvorak, I averaged 85-95 WPM with two-finger touch typing on QWERTY, hitting as high as 100 WPM for short bursts. I can currently reach the mid to high 60s WPM with Dvorak and proper typing, although I’m still learning it (I have the layout memorized, but it’s not muscle memory). I use Windows 7 on my computer. My goal is to be able to comfortably type with high accuracy at over 100 WPM for fairly extended periods without causing stress injuries.

    Anyway, I was using http://play.typeracer.com/ to practice, since it provides convenient stats tracking, and I saw someone on the latest high scores list reference Colemak. So I decided to research it and ended up here.

    Everything I’ve heard about the Colemak sounds good. I noticed that not having “I” on the home eight keys seemed inefficient and that “R” seemed more common than its placement implied. I also found the placement of “F” awkward. Having shortcuts moved so far also proved unhelpful. Still, I am more than happy to accept that if it brings me the relative benefits of Dvorak over QWERTY.

    However, if Colemak solves all those problems with additional benefits, then I want to use it. So I ran a test.

    Data:

    Keyboard analysis (using https://colemak.com/Compare):

    I compiled a writing sample of roughly 282,000 words from my writing spanning around three years. The results are:

    QWERTY:
    Distance: 44602m
    Same hand: 36.12%
    Same finger: 5.740%
    Total keys: 1755823
    Number row: 1.742%
    Top row: 48.97%
    Home row: 31.57%
    Bottom row: 17.70%

    Colemak:

    Distance: 22774m
    Same hand: 31.25%
    Same finger: 1.490%
    Total keys: 1755823
    Number row: 1.742%
    Top row: 16.29%
    Home row: 70.71%
    Bottom row: 11.24%

    Dvorak:

    Distance: 25833m
    Same hand: 22.03%
    Same finger: 2.543%
    Total keys: 1755823
    Number row: 1.404%
    Top row: 22.98%
    Home row: 67.81%
    Bottom row: 7.791%

    Comments on the data:

    QWERTY is the clear loser, and Colemak comes out marginally ahead of Dvorak. This seems sufficient for me to strongly consider switching, but I want to ask a few additional questions. I read in the FAQs that one disadvantage for Dvorak is the difficulty of learning it; however, this doesn’t matter to me, both because I’ve already largely learned Dvorak and because I don’t care how difficult the keyboard is to learn; I want to use the most efficient one.

    1. Speed
        As makes sense, none of the diagnostic tools I found could tell me how fast the Colemak is relative to the Dvorak. Speed is important to me – it’s one of my biggest reasons for the initial switch. I have read conflicting things about what makes a given setup fast; how do the Colemak and Dvorak compare? How does those mechanics work? I’m sure I’m not the first to ask this, so if there are any additional materials explaining these mechanics in more depth (I’ve already read the FAQ), I would love to read them.

    2. Accuracy
        I read that Dvorak makes people more accurate than QWERTY and that this effect increases over time. Is the same true for Colemak? What factors apply here and how do the different layouts compare? This is naturally related to my first question as well, since fewer mistakes increases speed.

    3. Shortcuts
        I assume Colemak wins here hands-down (since I’ve looked at the layout), but I just want to know if there is anything else important to know regarding this. What are the relative benefits here?

    4. Number row
        I must confess that this doesn’t exclusively deal with Colemak vs. Dvorak, but I’m hoping someone can still answer this question. What’s the proper way to type using the number row? I find that the biggest hits to my speed come when I have to type out strings of numbers using the number row. My current thinking is (although I haven’t yet memorized it – “Finger” refers to the home row position of the finger on the Dvorak keyboard)

    Key:         ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6     7 8 9 0 [  ] BS
    Finger:     a a o e  e u u     h h  t  n s s  s

    What is the optimal approach here? I assume it might differ some, since Colemak has a better option for hitting backspace than Dvorak or QWERTY (which I must note is a brilliant use of the otherwise useless caps lock key), so does that affect it? What’s the current thinking here?

    5. Learning tools
        I found several helpful websites to learn the Dvorak layout, primarily http://gigliwood.com/abcd/lessons/. Are there equivalent aids for learning the Colemak?

    Finally, if there are any other important considerations I have missed, please let me know. I do a lot of typing (planning on Political Theory for college and then to law school) and I do polyphasic sleeping, so I’m awake a ridiculous amount, so I really want to make sure I’m using the optimal typing techniques and layout. It appears that Colemak meets those criterion fairly well, but before I change layouts again, I just want to make sure that Colemak is the best layout for me (a lot of English writing; no coding, for instance) and not some alternative like Capewell or BUL layouts, which I saw some people claiming were superior (e.g. http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization)

    Thank you in advance for your help!

    EDIT:

    I have three more questions. First, what is the Dvorak "weak pinky" layout? Several programs have referenced it (e.g. http://www.codesharp.co.uk/dvorak/Default.aspx), yet I haven't been able to find what that layout actually looks like.

    Also, I have read more about the Workman layout (http://viralintrospection.wordpress.com … d-layouts/) and read some threads on this forum about it. It sounds like a potentially viable alternative; what's the general thinking on it? Any links to particularly helpful resources or threads would be appreciated. I also saw people discussing the Imak layout. What is that setup and what are its strengths and weaknesses?

    Finally, I have an Android phone. I have seen indications that there are mobile phone apps for Colemak. Is the same true for other layouts? Can anyone with experience in that area tell me a bit about their experiences there or direct to me relevant discussions?

    EDIT 2:

    After reading about twenty times what I ever expected to for this, I have decided to try Colemak. The two alternatives I was still considering both appear to have more problems.

    I was most interested in the Carpalx "improved Colemak" layouts. However, after reading this post (https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=728) and looking at the layouts, I'm unsure that it's actually better. The other layout I considered strongly was the "fully optimized" QGMLWY layout. However, since it has both a higher base score and more same finger (I believe), I think I'll try Colemak first.

    I'm still curious if anyone has any feedback, comments, or advice for me. I'd be especially interested in any feedback people have regarding which fingers to use on the number row, since I found a graphic indicating that my thinking was different from the generally expected finger usage for the number row. Thanks.

    Last edited by Legolan (06-Jun-2011 23:59:53)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    1) Speed: I think all layouts can be fast, even QWERTY has lightning-quick typists which pretty much closes that case for me. Colemak gives you benefits, but don't choose it for speed alone. That said, among the few people using Colemak there has already been fast typists (130 WPM and thereabouts) which proves that it isn't slow!

    2) Accuracy: I don't believe every bit of Dvorak advocacy I hear. I think that accuracy depends mostly on training. As you learn a new layout you'll have some initial trouble, but it'll sort itself out.

    3) Shortcuts: Yes, I love how you can take the classic shortcut keys with you that are nowadays important not only for Windows but pretty much everything. I remember with horror how I'd mishit the Ctrl+V trying to use the left hand while mousing, and close the window with Ctrl+W instead! One of my Dvorak gripes. Seems to be important for some while others don't care and/or use some tool to circumvent the problem.

    4) Look up the topic on the Wide ergo mod. There I've posted some images of how I prefer to do it. I think it's fairly individual and among other things that has to do with finger lengths which vary from person to person.

    5) Yes, there are tools and you can find references in the FAQ of this site I believe. Nowadays, I just use Typing Shark and Typing of the Dead regardless of them being basically QWERTY-centric. It doesn't bother you unless you're trying the initial lessons (but I play the games proper instead).

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    Thank you for the feedback! I will focus on learning Colemak for now then.

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    Please can you start a new thread for your number row question,  I'd be interested to hear what other people do.

    --
    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    There are many questions there!

    I only learnt how to touch type just over a year ago - and chose Dvorak.  In short because the layout appeared more ergonomic and widely supported across systems.  I personally hoped Dvorak and touch typing would alleviate personal pain - computer related injury.  I looked at Colemak - but in the end stuck with Dvorak.

    You've picked up Dvorak very quickly - and reached a very good speed in no time at all.  It took me a long old slog to get my fingers dancing.  I'm still only keying around 60WPM - with the odd peak.  So hats off to you!  I still experience discomfort in my right shoulder, but can't say whether this is related to the layout or not. 

    I can try and address a couple of points:

    Shortcuts:
    Just remember that CTRL+C, CTRL+X shortcuts are placed so you can key them with one hand and use the mouse with the other.  Which might not suit a lefty!

    Using one hand for shortcuts can result in odd hand contortions that might not be so good in the long run - it's my understanding that you should use two hands ideally when using modifiers.

    I also believe you are better shifting the mouse to the left hand to get better balance in front of a keyboard.  Only an issue for a keyboard that has a num-pad.  You can use CTRL + INSERT etc as an alternative to the left handed shortcuts.

    As soon as you transparently reach out for keys - CTRL + C is just as easy in Dvorak, you just think the shortcuts and they happen.  I kept on closing the windows at first with Dvorak mixing up my V and W as @Dreymar says.  Not a problem now.  Q and W are adjacent to the command key on mac keyboards which is a bonus.

    I do miss the ability to lazily use the keyboard with one hand - but it's the kind of thing that used to encourage me to adopt bad posture.  It can be a bit annoying if you don't change the key caps to visually identify shortcuts as well.  Though I don't fancy swapping the caps - as I occasionally use Qwerty.  Despite memorising the old layout  I am slow as anything touch typing it.

    One issue when changing your layout is remapping shortcut keys in applications that have intentionally placed shortcuts on one hand (designed for Qwerty).  Games for instance, I normally choose to flip back to Qwerty - as I can't be bothered to reprogram keys.

    Under Gnome on Linux - it's a simple matter of placing the backspace on the caps-lock key in whatever variant - it's not unique but rather inspired from Colemak - it might lesson the work on the right pinky.

    Speed:
    I perceived myself to be pretty fast as an ad hoc typist before transitioning to touch typing.  Though I never measured my rate.  I doubt I was near your speed.  I didn't think it was possible to really break 40WPM for sustained periods without touch typing.  I can only conclude that you must have agile fingers.

    I'm not a speed demon and it's not my number one concern.  Comfort is.  Though I'm still not totally comfortable touch typing (curiously I never had finger, hand, or wrist problems when I used the hunt and peck method.)  I think some of my discomfort is just teething pain.  Things are getting better for me.

    As a programmer I don't think my old typing method was a big show stopper.  I got by with many shortcuts, and in some ways was more innovative as a result.  You are forced to take shortcuts.  However I did get annoyed with the time it took to write emails etc.  From a productivity point of view, touch typing helps but I don't think it's the be all and end all.  There are also alternatives such as dictation software, using a Dictaphone and/or a personal assistant!  I haven't totally investigated it, but I'm sure predictive text and programmed shortcuts could really benefit non touch typists.

    It sounds though that you are a quick learner and with the rapid progress you have made - it's worth sticking with.

    Touch typing:
    There are some plus points to blind typing, I think once you get to the point where you don't think about typing - it's one less barrier to what you are trying to achieve.  I like typing in the dark and not having to hunch over the keyboard.

    Alternative layouts:
    I've concluded that OSs don't cater that well for alternative layouts at this moment.  It should be trivial for the end user to switch and personalise their input methods.  It's painful and tedious.

    Colemak vs Dvorak
    I did try Colemak, but learnt the wide angle Colemak layout by accident - though I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.  I did like it, but I felt I fumbled more than Dvorak.  I had got it into my head that Colemak must be better as it's newer than Dvorak.  However after investigating I haven't discovered a good scientific case for Colemak - just anecdotal evidence.  That's not to say that it might not be for you.  I'd suggest trying out a few and sticking with the one you prefer.  That's easier said than done though.  It takes me so long to get up to speed with a layout - it's difficult to try these things out.

    Variants:
    Many layouts have subtle variations.  UK and US Qwerty for instance.  Dvorak is different implementations on different operating systems.  This can be slightly annoying.

    Mobiles:
    If you are using one finger (or pointer) on a compact touch screen keyboard - I doubt you'll see much advantage running Dvorak compared with Qwerty - as you'd have to move the pointer further.  Plus you probably are visually tuned into Qwerty.  If you were to use two hands though - like a thumb keyboard - I could see an advantage in using Dvorak.  Perhaps you'd be better off learning a one handed layout - or something completely different more suited to a mobile.

    Portability:
    If you don't have to jump between systems then I think you can personalise your own PC to your hearts content.  There is someone on the forum that uses a Maltron and many of his own shortcuts to type incredibly fast with barely any effort.

    I wish someone would standardise a portable format - so you can take your layout and shortcuts with you and apply them wherever you go.

    --
    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    I think I should start off by apologizing a bit for dropping off the grid for nearly a month. I read all the replies, but I was still typing very slowly on Colemak, so I didn’t want to slog through writing a lengthy response. And by the time I was typing faster, my life got very busy for a while.

    But I’m back now. Here’s an update on me:
    I’m typing in the mid-60s WPM very comfortably now. I’ve hit as high as 72 WPM a few times, and I haven’t gotten a chance to practice at all for five days and my speed at least hasn’t declined when I tried it out again today. I still haven’t gotten to quite 500 races on typeracer.com yet, so I’m pretty happy with where I am currently.

    That said, I do have problems with accuracy. The biggest single thing is that I tend to accidently hit “e” or “o” or “n,” not in place of another letter but just in addition. Does anyone have any advice on how to work to fix that?

    I also have found that I tend to do “press-typing” rather than “tap-typing” if that makes sense. Does anyone have any advice on how to move towards just tapping the keys more? Is that something that should just come with greater familiarity with the keyboard?

    ----------

    I want to reply to all of pinkyache’s points before I ask my next set of questions:

    That’s a good idea to start another thread about the number row usage. I’ll do that.

    I’m sufficiently right handed that I can’t really imagine moving the mouse to the left hand, plus I have a Logitech Performance mouse that is shaped for the right hand. I have found the shortcuts on Colemak to be very nice, although I appreciate the advice regarding Dvorak.

    You’re right about games being often inconvenient to play with Dvorak or Colemak. However, I’m going off to college in the fall, and I’m planning to give up videogames then (I’ve already not played any for over a month), so that’s probably not a bad thing ;). If I need something competitive/challenging, I can just practice my typing!

    I agree with you about using shortcuts and that being helpful before moving to the touch typing. In fact, ctrl + backspace is so much better than just backspace, and I really miss its efficiency.

    I think you’re right about the most important thing being to test the layouts to see what works best. I’ve liked Colemak best so far, so I intend to stick with it, although I’m thinking about making a few modifications.

    As for portability, I found the Colemak portable program very useful. It seems to work great, and I can’t find anything negative about it.

    ----------

    Finally, my questions (please tell me if I should ask this somewhere else, such as technical):

    As I said above, I like being able to delete an entire word at a time with ctrl + backspace. However, I found that doing that when ten-finger typing to be inconvenient. So I thought about it a lot and decided that I could remap the following keys:

    [ > ctrl
    ] > [
    \ > ]

    Doing this enables me to easily access the backspace/caps lock key with my left pinky and the ctrl key with my right pinky. That should speed up my ability to correct mistakes (since I have found that simply deleting and retyping a word is almost always faster than trying to only delete back to the error and then retype the entire word – the latter involves a lot more thinking and loses some of the muscle memory speed advantage).

    The next question is where (if anywhere) to put the \ key. I’m not a programmer, so I can’t recall ever using it. That said, I might remap it to the menu key (between the windows and ctrl keys on the bottom right on my keyboard) if it’s convenient. But it really doesn’t matter that much to me, since I have literally never used it before.

    So here is my problem. I don’t know the requisite key codes to remap the keys or where to input the keycodes if I had them. Can someone either tell me the codes or (preferably) direct me to a list of all the keycodes for windows? Also, could someone explain how what to modify to make those changes once I have the keycodes?

    Thanks in advance!

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    Legolan said:

    I’m typing in the mid-60s WPM very comfortably now.

    That's nice. It took me two months to reach that speed.

    Legolan said:

    That said, I do have problems with accuracy. The biggest single thing is that I tend to accidently hit “e” or “o” or “n,” not in place of another letter but just in addition. Does anyone have any advice on how to work to fix that?

    In addition to specific letters or just at any time? What could a piece of text look like with that if you don't correct the errors?

    Legolan said:

    I also have found that I tend to do “press-typing” rather than “tap-typing” if that makes sense. Does anyone have any advice on how to move towards just tapping the keys more? Is that something that should just come with greater familiarity with the keyboard?

    If I understand it correctly, maybe try floating your hands. And if you have access to a keyboard with mechanical switches, maybe it's easier to feel/hear when you have depressed the key enough.


    Legolan said:

    I have found that simply deleting and retyping a word is almost always faster than trying to only delete back to the error and then retype the entire word
    [...]
    Can someone either tell me the codes or (preferably) direct me to a list of all the keycodes for windows? Also, could someone explain how what to modify to make those changes once I have the keycodes?

    Thanks in advance!


    I agree very much with ctrl+backspace.

    I haven't used Windows while I used Colemak, but back when I did, I did all sorts of remappings using AutoHotkey. It's not deeply embedded into Windows like it is if you do registry remapping, but it's very much easier (documentation and examples is on their web page) plus a lot more customisable. If you want to have your change apply across more things (maybe games), then the registry way is better, but I don't remember how to do that anymore.

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    erw said:
    Legolan said:

    I’m typing in the mid-60s WPM very comfortably now.

    That's nice. It took me two months to reach that speed.

    Thank you! I have found typing practice fairly fun, so I think that helps a lot. It's probably also helpful that I do a lot of typing naturally since I'm on the computer almost all day. I can already see a difference in terms of stress on my hands compared to my old two-finger QWERTY typing, so I'm very happy with that!

    erw said:
    Legolan said:

    That said, I do have problems with accuracy. The biggest single thing is that I tend to accidently hit “e” or “o” or “n,” not in place of another letter but just in addition. Does anyone have any advice on how to work to fix that?

    In addition to specific letters or just at any time? What could a piece of text look like with that if you don't correct the errors?

    Generally it happens when I'm doing a reach either up or down on the right side of the keyboard. I don't generally leave off other letters (although that does occasionally happen). If I didn't correct the text, it would look like normal except for a sprinkling of extra N's, E's, I's, and O's.

    erw said:
    Legolan said:

    I also have found that I tend to do “press-typing” rather than “tap-typing” if that makes sense. Does anyone have any advice on how to move towards just tapping the keys more? Is that something that should just come with greater familiarity with the keyboard?

    If I understand it correctly, maybe try floating your hands. And if you have access to a keyboard with mechanical switches, maybe it's easier to feel/hear when you have depressed the key enough.

    I have heard a lot about floating one's hands when typing, but I'm not entirely sure what it means and how to learn it. I looked for tutorials on YouTube, but I couldn't find anything useful. Are there any helpful resources you know of that explain floating in more depth and say how to do it?

    erw said:
    Legolan said:

    I have found that simply deleting and retyping a word is almost always faster than trying to only delete back to the error and then retype the entire word
    [...]
    Can someone either tell me the codes or (preferably) direct me to a list of all the keycodes for windows? Also, could someone explain how what to modify to make those changes once I have the keycodes?

    Thanks in advance!


    I agree very much with ctrl+backspace.

    I haven't used Windows while I used Colemak, but back when I did, I did all sorts of remappings using AutoHotkey. It's not deeply embedded into Windows like it is if you do registry remapping, but it's very much easier (documentation and examples is on their web page) plus a lot more customisable. If you want to have your change apply across more things (maybe games), then the registry way is better, but I don't remember how to do that anymore.

    Thanks for the link to autohotkey! Do you know if the standard version is compatible with Windows 7? I will certainly give it a try so I can test some remappings. I make my computer Colemak with the registry edits, should that still work fine with autohotkey or might it cause some problems?

    Thanks for all the help!

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    Legolan said:

    it would look like normal except for a sprinkling of extra N's, E's, I's, and O's.

    That is weird! Maybe floating will also help :-)


    Legolan said:

    I have heard a lot about floating one's hands when typing, but I'm not entirely sure what it means and how to learn it. I looked for tutorials on YouTube, but I couldn't find anything useful. Are there any helpful resources you know of that explain floating in more depth and say how to do it?

    I don't know if there is a right way to do it, but I simply meant don't rest the bases of your hands on the table/laptop/hand rest/whatever.


    Legolan said:

    Thanks for the link to autohotkey! Do you know if the standard version is compatible with Windows 7? I will certainly give it a try so I can test some remappings. I make my computer Colemak with the registry edits, should that still work fine with autohotkey or might it cause some problems?

    Thanks for all the help!

    No probs :-)  I don't know if it's compatible,  but I don't see a reason it shouldn't be. Unless you need advanced scripting, I think any version will be fine as well. Registry remapping works on a level transparent to applications so they should work fine together (the registry can only move "whole" keys, so if you move the "1" key, "!" follows, but ahk can do much more including more fine grained control).

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    Great, thanks for the feedback! I guess it's time to remap some keys and then come back once I have some results to share.

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    To increase accuracy you can try Typing of the Dead game, it has several accuracy drills which are really fun.

    Or use Amphetype and set minimum accuracy to 97% or higher.

    After sometimes, accuracy brings higher speed, since you will have to use backspace less and less.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (05-Jul-2011 05:14:46)
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    Thanks for the reference to Amphetype! I've installed it and tried it out some, and it looks very useful! I think's that's probably the best way I've come across to drill accuracy (I've never liked the 100% accuracy games; auto-failing for one mistake bothers me and messes up my typing more than helping).

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