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    Colemak, German and R/S keys

    • Started by tin-pot
    • 8 Replies:
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    • Registered: 05-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 4

    Hi everybody,

    I'm about to try out another - better - layout than QUERTY, but am not quite sure which one to adopt. So far, I'm looking at

    - Colemak (of course),
    - Asset,
    - Workman,
    - CarpalxQ and QGMLWY as discussed on the CarpalX site.

    Of these, Colemak seems to be a very good compromise between efficiency and "non-alienness" for a long-time QUERTY typist.

    However, while dabbling with these layouts, I find the Asset layout to be an attractive contender for this reasons (note that I intend to type both English and German, say in a 50 : 50 ratio. Interestingly, Asset seems to be more efficient for german than for english texts, but I don't mind that very much.)

    1. Somehow, I'm often confusing the R and S keys on Colemak,

    2. The very common german sequences "ei", "ie" (each > 2 % of bigrams), and more "ein" and "kein" feel pretty awkward on Colemak because of the twiddling with 3 neighboring fingers,

    3. The bigram "sc" (about 1 % of all bigrams in german) feels terrible - it is a same-finger stroke "inwards".

    All three issues are trivially avoided in the Asset layout: E and I,N are on different hands, S (and C) are in the QUERTY positions.

    While I hope that points (1) and (2) are just a matter of practice, number (3) is inherent in the Colemak layout.

    On the other hand, Colemak has too many nice properties to disregard it for these quirks. So at the moment it boils down to these questions:

    - I tend to exchange R/S on the Colemak layout; trials with http://www.andong.co.uk/dvorak/ show that this improves Colemak significantly for german texts (note that R is the 4th-most common letter in german!), and does not much harm for english texts - does anyone have experiences with this modification?

    - While it scores somewhat worse than Colemak, the Asset layout seems to be a good choice for QUERTY typists who want to minimize the transition hassles. Does anyone share my observations about the neighboring N/E/I keys, and has overcome this "awkwardness"?

    Thank you for any comments or feedback!

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    About the awkwardness of the NEI keys – yes. In the beginning most of us feel this way. That's how Colemak feels in some cases. But that isn't something bad or damaging, it's just different. After some practice you'll learn to coordinate your fingers better and not having any problems with these. Same goes for EI/IE and  RS/SR – a very often mistake for Qwerty users, switching to Colemak.

    The SC isn't a very nice one, I can see. You could try to type the C with your index finger. Depending on your typing style that could be very easy or... not very so :). I think switching R and S won't help much about this. Try hitting R with the ring finger and C with the middle – not very comfortable. If you use the index finger it's a little better but not that much to be a deciding factor for the R-S swap.

    About how it will change the typing in English and if it will be more comfortable in German I can't comment.

    Let me know if any of this doesn't make much sense and I'll try to explain myself more clear ;)

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    • Registered: 05-Mar-2012
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    @pafkata: Thanks for your comments!

    On the N/E/I keys: Yes, this is probably just a matter of getting used to it. The EI and RS digrams are not much of a problem, but the middle-left-right-dance for "EIN" is foreign at first.

    The "SC" stuff: Using the index finger for that ... better not.

    Maybe it's primarily the long-time effect of QUERTY, but typing "SC" there seems not too uncomfortable to me; and it would be the same motion on a "Colemak-SR" layout. The "FR" digram would also be easier after the SR swap in my opinion, even if becomes a same-finger stroke.

    I think it is worth a try (for my purposes), and I actually have already generated this layout. I'll report on my experience with it soon.

    If anybody wants to have a look at it, use

    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

    with the "Layout ID":

    0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,32,24,33,35,37,21,20,38,25,26,27,28,29,30,18,19,31,34,47,17,22,23,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,36,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60

    or look at the statistics here

    http://www.andong.co.uk/dvorak/

    with the layout definition

    `1234567890-=
    #qwfpgjluy;[]\
    #asrtdhneio'*N
    *Lzxcvbkm,./*R
    ##*S#
    *L
    #######&**()_+
    ######JLUY:{}|
    ######HNEIO"
    ######KM<>?
    #
    *R
    ~!@*#$%^
    #QWFPG
    #ASRTD
    #ZXCVB
    #

    The latter site gives the following "effort units" with a german sample text (from Kafka's "Die Verwandlung"):

    Colemak: 70.371
    Colemak-SR: 70.063

    and for an english sample text (from Wells' "War of the Worlds"):

    Colemak: 47.133
    Colemak-SR: 47.208

    So far, this looks like a good deal to me ...

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    I don't see any problem with the FR on the "standard" Colemak. FS (same finger) isn't hard to do but it's same finger, which will slow you down when you get to higher speeds. I'll look into the comparison of the English stats for the RS and SR versions of Colemak and will come back.

    Edit: As far as the in- and outward rolls are concerned (for English language), there is almost no difference (very slightly worse after the change). Finger load, no problems.

    A slight problem could be when it comes to same finger ratios. After the change the same finger ratio for the left Ring finger raises a little bit (from 0.18% to 0.46%), and also slightly for the Middle finger (with 0.1%). The overall increase is from 3.95% to 4.33%. Doesn't look like a lot.

    The digraph WS is about 0.03% of all the digraphs (which is the same for WR) but this one isn't hard to type since it's Upper row → Home row. The more damaging one is SW which is about the same 0.03% compared to RW – 0.01%.

    These numbers don't seem very high, even knowing that same finger digraphs are one of the things that interrupt your flow the most. I'd say if the benefits in German are better than the loss in English, go for it.

    Note: all the numbers I'm using are from data I've gathered and combined from different places and an excel spreadsheet layout analyzer I'm using. It was initially made by BvoFRak (who I'm very grateful for) and I got the idea and rebuilt it to my liking while using my data and adding features and design ideas I liked. If you'd like to look at it, I will send it to you.

    If you have some statistics about German language (it shouldn't be very hard to find), you can edit it around, so it works for German, as well as English. Currently I've made it for English and Bulgarian (my native language).

    Last edited by pafkata90 (06-Mar-2012 02:17:42)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Do an Angle ergonomic mod (moving ZXCVB outwards and the 102nd key to the middle)! That way, the sc digraph becomes an outward one that you may slide with one finger on many keyboards. Certainly on my laptop board at least.

    For digraphs like RW I'd use alternative fingering if I had to do them often: Slide the middle finger to hit R, then ring finger on W. Same for many other troublemakers. Only worth learning if you're going to use them often though.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 05-Mar-2012
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    Hey, thanks for your comments!

    @DreymaR: If I understand you correctly, this would mean that 'SC' is like querty-'DX', after the shift of ZXCVB, right? Don't think my keyboard does allow the kind of "sliding" that would be required ...

    @pafkata90: I found some useful statistics for the german language (and others) here:

    http://www.sttmedia.de/silbenhaeufigkeiten

    But after some playing around with the S/R question, I no longer think it is worth it to exchange them; not the least because I like the "ST" roll (1.29 % freq.!), as a counterpart to the "IE" (2.1 %) and "EN" (4.9 %) motions - I would miss that ...

    So for now I'll just go with the "masses" ;-) and practice with the "standard" layout (even right now, but slooooowly ...)

    I'll have to think later about what to do with äöüß... vs [\]{}... - after gaining some hold on the 26 letters, that is.

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    Can't you just use both layouts. The one with äöüß for normal uses and the one with the brackets for programming, or whatever you need it for. I bet you use much more äöüß in normal day-to-day use than the brackets.

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    On a normal working day, I may well use more brackets than Umlaute (äöü) - I work as a software developer.

    In fact, I just exchanged my german keyboard at work for an US-layout for this reason, and that started me thinking about the alphabet layout too ...

    On the other hand, writing longer texts in german using the standard dead keys of the Colemak layout seems rather tedious to me.

    Maybe a workable solution would be to have the regular national keyboard rearranged to Colemak (ie the 26 letters), and then place the []{}\| stuff on convenient positions of the AltGr-level for the *left hand*.

    In the alternate layout, the six characters []{}\| would be on the äöü keys again, in the same locations as in a US keyboard.

    (The different placement of the symbols in US and DE has nothing to do with Colemak, of course.)

    Hmm.

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    Some people here like to use their CapsLock key for a modifier. If you like the idea, you could fix something up for yourself. Like having Caps + other keys for stuff like Del, Backspace, PgUp/Dn, Arrows, Umlautes, Brackets, etc. Definitely easier to hit than the AltGr. And also having that AND AltGr gives you easier way of typing more characters.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (08-Mar-2012 00:07:18)
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