• You are not logged in.
  • Index
  • General
  • Can I get some assistance by seasoned pro's on a layout I've designed?

    Can I get some assistance by seasoned pro's on a layout I've designed?

    • Started by HeavensRevenge
    • 13 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 14-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 7

    Hello, I was wondering if there are any people who would like to use/rate my keyboard I've been in the process of having an enjoyable time using.
    I have created a quick & easy Windows installer of the layout made with the Microsoft Layout Creator you can download from here -> http://www.mediafire.com/?ra17nj9mt719mdg (Note It's en-CA not en-US so you may want to modify it to be grouped with your default locale for easy switching)

    This layout is mostly custom; not based on optimizer placements since their results feel/flow kind of bad as I've personally experienced. I noticed after the fact my V4 is unusually similar to Dvorak. All home row keys, the keys above the with the middle & ring finger and I also placed G/,/A/Q manually, and I tuned completely for comfort & hand anatomy.

    I am still learning and playing with evolution/layout optimization programs, but for now, I'd like to ask the seasoned keyboard layout veterans what you think of the layout. How it feels compared to your Colemak or any alternative layouts you've learn't and may easily spot a horrid learning barricade from a simple look or quick feel from previous mind re-training. :) I've come to enjoy and it seems to score fairly well on those online comparers, but most importantly it feels good and flows wonderfully during use. It scores amazingly well on long novel text.  Just to mention same finger seems to be it's most problematic feature but not horrendously bad.

    EAton v#4.2:

    ;rld p ' fuwq -=\
    snth m y aeoi.
    zxcv ? g ,jkb

    3PlPnl.jpg

    For the http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/ use:

    {"label":"EAton","fingerStart":{"1":29,"2":30,"3":31,"4":32,"5":56,"6":56,"7":35,"8":36,"9":37,"10":38,"11":56,"false":-1},"keyboardType":"standard","keys":[{"primary":96,"shift":126,"finger":1,"id":0},{"primary":49,"shift":33,"finger":1,"id":1},{"primary":50,"shift":64,"finger":2,"id":2},{"primary":51,"shift":35,"finger":3,"id":3},{"primary":52,"shift":36,"finger":4,"id":4},{"primary":53,"shift":37,"finger":4,"id":5},{"primary":54,"shift":94,"finger":7,"id":6},{"primary":55,"shift":38,"finger":7,"id":7},{"primary":56,"shift":42,"finger":8,"id":8},{"primary":57,"shift":40,"finger":9,"id":9},{"primary":48,"shift":41,"finger":10,"id":10},{"primary":91,"shift":123,"finger":10,"id":11,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":93,"shift":125,"finger":10,"id":12,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":8,"finger":10,"id":13},{"primary":9,"finger":1,"id":14},{"primary":59,"shift":58,"finger":1,"id":15,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":114,"shift":82,"finger":2,"id":16,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":108,"shift":76,"finger":3,"id":17,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":100,"shift":68,"finger":4,"id":18,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":112,"shift":80,"finger":4,"id":19,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":39,"shift":34,"finger":7,"id":20,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":102,"shift":70,"finger":7,"id":21,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":117,"shift":85,"finger":8,"id":22,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":119,"shift":87,"finger":9,"id":23,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":113,"shift":81,"finger":10,"id":24,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":45,"shift":95,"finger":10,"id":25,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":61,"shift":43,"finger":10,"id":26,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":92,"shift":124,"finger":10,"id":27},{"primary":20,"finger":1,"id":28},{"primary":115,"shift":83,"finger":1,"id":29,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":110,"shift":78,"finger":2,"id":30,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":116,"shift":84,"finger":3,"id":31,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":104,"shift":72,"finger":4,"id":32,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":109,"shift":77,"finger":4,"id":33,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":121,"shift":89,"finger":7,"id":34,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":97,"shift":65,"finger":7,"id":35,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":101,"shift":69,"finger":8,"id":36,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":111,"shift":79,"finger":9,"id":37,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":105,"shift":73,"finger":10,"id":38,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":46,"shift":62,"finger":10,"id":39,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":13,"finger":10,"id":40},{"primary":16,"finger":1,"id":41},{"primary":122,"shift":90,"finger":1,"id":42},{"primary":120,"shift":88,"finger":2,"id":43},{"primary":99,"shift":67,"finger":3,"id":44},{"primary":118,"shift":86,"finger":4,"id":45},{"primary":63,"shift":47,"finger":4,"id":46,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":103,"shift":71,"finger":7,"id":47,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":44,"shift":60,"finger":7,"id":48,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":106,"shift":74,"finger":8,"id":49,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":107,"shift":75,"finger":9,"id":50,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":98,"shift":66,"finger":10,"id":51,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":-16,"finger":10,"id":52},{"primary":17,"finger":5,"id":53},{"primary":-91,"finger":5,"id":54},{"primary":18,"finger":5,"id":55},{"primary":32,"finger":5,"id":56},{"primary":-18,"finger":6,"id":57},{"primary":-91,"finger":6,"id":58},{"primary":-93,"finger":6,"id":59},{"primary":17,"finger":6,"id":60}]}

    For http://www.andong.co.uk/dvorak/ use:

    `1234567890[]
    #;rldp'fuwq-=\
    #snthmyaeoi.*N
    *Lzxcv?g,jkb*R
    ##*S#
    *L
    #######&**(){}
    ######"FUWQ_+|
    ######YAEOI>
    ######G<JKB
    #
    *R
    ~!@*#$%^
    #:RLDP
    #SNTHM
    #ZXCV/

    I would love to get some thoughts, suggestions, and feedback for improvements my novice keyboard layout mind hasn't yet been able to see. :)

    Edit: Does anybody know how to tune the carpalx optimizer to help decrease same-finger in addition to distance?

    Last edited by HeavensRevenge (01-Jun-2012 10:05:26)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    How are these words:

    deny modern gained bender hunted

    It looks to me as if your layout makes some common digraphs rather hard?

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 14-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 7

    Hmm that's interesting, initially I swapped the E & T simply because it felt better personally, would swapping them back suit your taste batter? They do seem oddly clumped up on the right swapped or not, I am also right-handed so I also prefer my right for more common/starting glyphs.

    Edit: How does swapping the E & O keys feel?

    My optimizer training material included top English words & verbs and all the most common digraph's & trigraph's with some the's and personal vocabulary I type often sprinkled in to help make it more "real world", but it appears the de & ed bigraph's were in too little number to be positionally optimized this time. Their all positionally close but the movements are indeed unusual as you mentioned.

    I've Altered the 1st version by swapping the E & O keys, making "EAton" and It does help some. Would you make any other suggestions? :)

    Last edited by HeavensRevenge (17-Mar-2012 05:02:27)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 4
    • Registered: 08-Dec-2010
    • Posts: 656

    For most of us, the switching exprience is quite hellish anyway, and therefore most people here tend to switch to Colemak/Dvorak and stop at that. Maybe nimbostratue is an exception which switches layout for fun.

    For comparison between two or more layouts, carpalx is an excellent, objective way to do so.

    http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak

    You can download carpalx and run tests on your own.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (17-Mar-2012 07:02:45)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 1
    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    Indeed you have quite a lot of digraphs requiring using the same finger. Find a list with the common digraphs and take a look at it. Ask if you can't find it.
    As a comparison your same finger ratio is a bit worse than Qwerty's.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • From: Switzerland
    • Registered: 21-Aug-2007
    • Posts: 176

    I used www.andong.co.uk/dvorak to test your layout, using some Shakespeare text from carPalx. It does better than Dvorak and worse the Colemak overall, but some things have quite some room for improvement:
    - Same finger is 6.9% compared to QWERTY's 5.7% and Colemak's 3.1%.
    - Same hand is worse than Colemak and QWERTY, too.

    You could also try these common trigraphs from norvig.com/ngrams (found in this comment):

    the    82103550112____2.763%
    ing    43727954927____1.471%
    and    43452082914____1.462%
    ion    39907843075____1.343%
    tio    32705432538____1.101%
    ent    31928292897____1.074%
    for    26276145239____0.884%
    ati    25312331919____0.852%
    ter    21635845251____0.728%
    ate    19978168727____0.672%

    for is quite uncomfortable (same finger).

    I see you gave H a home spot rather than I, that's a bit unusual according to mtgap

    Last edited by boli (17-Mar-2012 10:38:20)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 14-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 7

    Alright, I've Made a version #2 :) May I ask for any additional excellent and very helpful suggestions on the revised version I've updated my main post with? :)

    I am aware that since I'm trying to avoid too much bottom row & pinky usage the sacrifice is higher same finger usage but at least it a bit lower than before :)

    Last edited by HeavensRevenge (18-Mar-2012 23:23:25)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 1
    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    To be honest bottom row and pinkey usage are not as bad as same finger ratio. When you reach higher speeds (and not even that high), the bottom row and the pinkies don't slow you nearly as much as same finger combos. That's why many like to use alternative fingering.

    Edit: With v2 you've taken some load and a fair amount of same finger combinations form the left index, and some from the right middle. A bit better than Qwerty now but I'd say you can improve it. Though if I had to give you an advice other than looking at the list with bi- and trigraphs, I'd have to ask you what's your reasoning to not use one of the many already made layouts? Are you looking for some particular feeling on the keyboard or is it just the challenge and satisfaction of using something you've made, that you're after?

    Last edited by pafkata90 (19-Mar-2012 22:32:27)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 08-Mar-2008
    • Posts: 303

    The biggest problem here is high same-finger usage. I would recommend putting vowels on the pinky home keys keeping uncommon keys on the other pinky spots. That helps keep same finger lower.

    You did a lot right—finger-travel distance is nice and low—but there are some significant problems, such as those mentioned above.

    boli quoted a comment I made a while ago about putting H on the home keys. I think it can be a good idea to do so (most of my more recent keyboards put H in the QWERTY 'j' position), but it's harder to do it well. In general, it's better to put the eight most common keys on the home keys.

    Be wary of quoting any information on my website, as I do not update any of those pages except for my <a href="http://mtgap.bilfo.com/alternative_layouts.html">alternative layouts</a> and <a href="http://mtgap.bilfo.com/letter_frequency.html">letter frequency</a> pages.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    I'd say that H is well enough placed in QWERTY: It's toward the end of the ETAOINSHRD so it fits that it and the D are on the home row index stretches? Especially since those aren't quite stretches once you're used to floating the hands about just a little.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 1
    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
    • Posts: 387

    That's the thing. People type with different styles. Some like to rest their hands, some float; some like using the W F and U Y positions (Colemak), some prefer the inward movement D H; some like more hand alternation, some prefer easy rolls, and so on. That's what I meant when I asked HeavensRevenge if he wanted certain "feeling" out of the layout.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,362

    Oh, I rest my hands all right. But they're not glued in place - and regardless of your preferences I get the impression that with experience people will become more fluid in regard to the base position.

    But it's a good point pafkata; it had me looking for the 'like' button until I realized I've been using Facebook too much today. ;)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 14-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 7

    Hello again, I am trying to find a certain comfortable feeling, I have been trying the many layouts already made, although I do enjoy trying to make an awesome layout others may like too.  So far I do have a weeks worth of changes/research into my V4 which I'll update my main post with.

    On a side note, I've been trying to lower same-finger but I'm sadly unsure of what variable or what code to modify in carpalx' Perl code to try and keep same finger low.  Does anybody know what, if any, variables carpalx use in order to optimize for low same finger??

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 14-Mar-2012
    • Posts: 7

    Had to update the patorjk.com layout configuration.  So is anyone aware of how to configure/code the "optimizers" for low same-finger?

    Offline
    • 0
      • Index
      • General
      • Can I get some assistance by seasoned pro's on a layout I've designed?