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Reduce same-finger utilization?

  • Started by Antithesis
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Hello, I'm making a new keyboard layout that puts low same-finger utilization on priority #1 (I'm even willing to remove one of the 8 most common letters from the home row if that's what it takes), but I just can't get it to be as low as with Colemak. Props for that.

Can anyone help me getting it as low as with Colemak? Are there any tips for how to keep it low? And are there any layouts that have this number even lower than Colemak?

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I agree that same-finger feels bad. But no, I can't help you beat Colemak. I've shopped around and tried my own grubby hand but Colemak is hard to beat for a package that gets a lot of things right and a fair number of them as close to optimal as seems practically achievable to me.

*** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
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@antithesis, can you explain what you mean by same finger utilization?

Last edited by pinkyache (26-Jun-2012 08:42:48)

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Heh, I suppose that's not a small detail. With same-finger utilization (or consecutive finger use), I mean using one finger to press to keys in a row. Examples include the bigrams DE, AS, and PO on the Qwerty layout.

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You may want to play with patojk keyboard layout analyzer and to ask him how to get such optimization included in his website

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

Last edited by Tony_VN (26-Jun-2012 09:46:37)
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Not to be picky or anything, Antithesis, but AS and PO are not same-finger digraphs on QWERTY :) They're both pinky→ring finger.

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My bad, I wasn't thinking straight. DE, LO and GT on Qwerty are correct examples.

And I have used Pat or JK's analyzer, but the personalized layout doesn't really score better in same-finger utilization (or overall, for that matter).

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Look around the Carpalx website http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?

It might give you some ideas.

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Aha, gotcha! I bet Dvorak scores really well on that count (with the odd exception CT, RN, RV, UP, PU, JE, UX and (cough) LS, I know this seems a long list, but probably only CT is an issue, however it's not the hardest to key, corresponds to IK on Qwerty.)

Last edited by pinkyache (26-Jun-2012 18:58:20)

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I just can't agree with Carpalx's way of rating 'punishments'. They seem to care more about row jumps with the ring finger, than they care about same-finger utilization. And am I the only one who thinks they're being vague as shit on their website?

I actually have the CT problem as well on Colemak, because I type C with my index finger. I don't think that's easily fixed, though, and in return I get to an extra key on its Qwerty porition, so whatever.

I have a clue about how Colemak works its magic: it cleverly places 4 of the vowels under the right ring and middle finger (vowel-only bigrams are rare), and two of them under the pinkies, which don't move. Does anyone know of other ideas for a vowel setup?

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Well it would be worth looking at Dvorak's vowel set up.  All on the left, mostly on the home row, unless you count Y as a vowel.  Investigating their order would be interesting - I bet there's a good rationale behind it.

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I think Carpalx allow you to download his programs so you can alter his programs to suit your needs. Is that right?

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The way I see it, the primary limitations in SameFinger count are that A) you have more keys than fingers, and B) no finger can be in two places at the same time. Thereby the most effective solutions for each of these problems would be:

A) Increase the number of typing fingers (thumbs)
B) Have the keys type more than one letter (layers/chording).

I have the feeling that these were not the type of suggestions Antithesis had in mind though, so I'll stop here.


... Well, now that I think about it, there is also option C) Reduce the number of letters in the alphabet.
Edit: Actually that would increase same finger, as there would be fewer filler letters to break things up, so forget that.

Last edited by cevgar (28-Jun-2012 14:07:00)
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> Have the keys type more than one letter

I'm up for having the keys typing letters. ;)

In my mind, we should be using way less fingers.  Type with a few strong healthy digits and utilise better shorthand.  I'm not totally convinced by chording - I once was a proponent - but it just seems too fiddly.

Dictation software seems to be making some in roads.

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pinkyache said:

Well it would be worth looking at Dvorak's vowel set up.  All on the left, mostly on the home row, unless you count Y as a vowel.  Investigating their order would be interesting - I bet there's a good rationale behind it.

Y can most definitely be a vowel because it can create another syllable, for example, in the word 'syllable'. ;)


Tony_VN said:

I think Carpalx allow you to download his programs so you can alter his programs to suit your needs. Is that right?

Hm, I might take another look at it then.


cevgar said:

The way I see it, the primary limitations in SameFinger count are that A) you have more keys than fingers, and B) no finger can be in two places at the same time. Thereby the most effective solutions for each of these problems would be:

A) Increase the number of typing fingers (thumbs)
B) Have the keys type more than one letter (layers/chording).

I have the feeling that these were not the type of suggestions Antithesis had in mind though, so I'll stop here.


... Well, now that I think about it, there is also option C) Reduce the number of letters in the alphabet.
Edit: Actually that would increase same finger, as there would be fewer filler letters to break things up, so forget that.

These are exactly the kind of hacks I'm looking for. I did think about A and B but, since they're such big steps away, it has my preference to do as much as possible with the current setup. It's still worth looking at, though.

A is interesting, but not every keyboard looks exactly the same so a universal implementation will be hard. For example, if I want my right thumb to be positioned comfortably above the right alt-key, my right pink would be on the return-key, which is heavier than the others, and I have a backslash-or-pipe key (\, |) in between the quotation marks button and return, so my ring finger would be above that. I'd have to change it whenever I use another keyboard. I guess the layout could just have different versions, though.

Could you explain the difference between layers and cording (or what they are in the first place, for that matter)?

As for C, I thought it was a joke but the edit makes it seem serious. Care to explain?

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Well I'm not that familiar with layers, but my take on it is that you press a modifier, that then replaces the existing layout with an overlay.   You can use layers to expand the selection of inputable glyphs.  Or use fewer keys and more layers as an alternative for conventional keyboard text input.

Chording is using more than one digit simultaneously to input say a glyph.  If you had 4 keys, then you'd have 4! -1 permutations.   That's 23 positions - which would be enough to enter the Irish alphabet.

Having said that not all those permutations might be comfortable or easy to learn!  The Frogpad uses chording.

Add a modifier to chording, and you bump up the possibilities - layers with chording. I guess this is the same as just adding another button in effect.  So layers and chording are much the same thing.  Unless your modifier key doesn't need to be pressed simultaneously.

Antithesis:
>These are exactly the kind of hacks I'm looking for. I did think about A and B but, since they're such big steps away, it has my preference to do as much as possible with the current setup. It's still worth looking at, though.

You'll be treading charted territory then - why not take the road less traveled?

Last edited by pinkyache (29-Jun-2012 11:28:51)

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@pinkyache: Ouch, you got me! Just like one of those self playing pianos, eh?


Well, I've explored Thumb usage possibilities somewhat, so you can see what I have already said at the Wide Colemak Mod and Toss The Spacebar threads. I think I might have touched on it in the Key-tar thread as well. More or less, you hit the nail on the head. The buttons that it would be practical for the thumbs to use on a standard keyboard (L.Alt or Function keys with an inverted board) are not, in fact, standardized. Even worse, the number row tends to be left out on software keyboards entirely (iOS, Android), severely limiting options. The only thing that would cover all usages is to alter you technique and move the hands up in such a way to cram all the fingers into the main 30 key area, but that has it's own problems. A lot of them.

As for layers and chording, due to the difficulty in programming them I have avoided exploring this route. Also, these tend to double, or triple key presses for a single letter and bungle up shortcuts something fierce, so while great for limited space devices, handicaps or applications where there is no tactile feedback; for everyday use they are not recommended. See "One-handed Colemak Variant" (based on Matias Half-Qwerty) for Layers example and asetniop's excellent "Chorded keyboard layout for Colemak" for... well, chords. Also, wikipedia has a good entry on chorded keyboards, so check there.


Edit: Just noticed you asked about the alphabet thing, and yes it was a joke, but a joke I have seriously considered in the past. There are certain letters in the alphabet which are... for lack of a better word, redundant. In English at least. For example q can very easily be replaced with k. Q still rekuires the U, so adding a modifier letter, like w, or leaving the u isn't really changing anything. X could also be replaced with other letters, like KS, if you don't mind the ekstra letter (yeah, yeah, but how often do you use words like zylophone, or Zanadu?). Of course, by removing less frekwenly used letters, the remaining letters get used more often. In this eksample, the KS digraph has greatly increased in frequency and is now a notable digraph that one would have to watch for when considering a layout's same finger ratio.

There is also Option D, that pinkyache hit upon. Type less. This can be done by either using Voice to Text software, mouse input like Microsoft Visual Keyboard and Dasher an autosuggest/autocomplete/text expander programs like letmetype and PhraseExpress or even some form of alphabetic shorthand. See ComputerScript as an example. Of course you could always create your own shorthand system with a word processor's auto correct function. For instance, replace " t " with " the ", replace " n " with " and ", etc.

Last edited by cevgar (29-Jun-2012 14:50:12)
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@cevgar, reference crazy posting!

I had the keys BGT and 5 die on my old Powerbook.  These correspond to XIY and 5 under Dvorak.

1 found that 1 could l1ve w1thout those kees and 1t d1dn't take that long to get used to1t, u get me?

You can use correction software to your advantage.  The SOUNDEX and Levenshtein distance algorithms/strategies can be leveraged to a certain extent.  Dasher is a brilliant concept, it uses some nice open source libraries that you could build something smart with.

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Br1ll14nt!!!

...or perhaps, 3k5(3ll4nt? 5t1ll, vvh4t 4 (0nc3pt.

ugh, I feel dirty now.

Last edited by cevgar (29-Jun-2012 14:58:23)
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There was someone here on the forum, that posted a link to one handed typing software.  He used  a reflection of the left half of the board to map to the right, and software would do the hard work to work out what you were typing.  I went to try it out recently, but the project looked like it had vanished into a black hole.

Fast auto-correction - that's really easy to use could be a boon.  I've a friend that uses Swype with one hand (probably his thumb), and he's amazingly fast with it.

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Bloody hell, Nuance is getting their fingers into everything these days. ... It does look a whole lot easier than the 8-pen though.

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@cevgar, looks like you need to have a go at dotsies!

http://dotsies.org/stories/the-lamplighter.html

Amazing what your brain can get used to.

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Colemak has one of the best same finger ratio but has a bad alternation of hands  against Dvorak.

Win 1% of same finger and lost 10% of alternation is not a solution.

Actually, be the best in one thing is not enough!

Arensito, Capewell, & Colemak have the shortest distance.
Arensito, Capewell, & Colemak have the best same finger ratio <2%.
Dvorak has the best alternation hand.
Carlpax has the lowest pinky use.
Arensito, Capewell, Workman have 50/50% hand use

Workman tried to find a good compromise of all, but forgot something else; the "rolls"!
When you don't alternate the hands, fingers of the same hand must "flow" from the pinky to the index. The best way I find to have a good rolls is to use the finger next to the one you just type with; even if you can't have the flow "pinky to index". For ex: the best move is major->index, and prefer  a ring finger->pinky than a middle->pinky.
Why? Because it will be easier to make a same hand/different finger/different line.

I try to find a good compromise of all.
good alternation 71%, good repartition of hand, same fingers 2,5%, lowest distance for text, low pinky (under 9% of use), and good "rolls"

BvoFRak EN V0.5
391021BvoFRakENV05.png
One drawback it's not improve for total developper.

Try it:
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

{"label":"BVOFRAK EN V0.5","fingerStart":{"1":29,"2":30,"3":31,"4":32,"5":56,"6":56,"7":35,"8":36,"9":37,"10":38,"11":56,"false":-1},"keyboardType":"standard","keys":[{"primary":96,"shift":94,"finger":1,"id":0,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":35,"shift":49,"finger":1,"id":1,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":61,"shift":50,"finger":1,"id":2,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":40,"shift":51,"finger":2,"id":3,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":41,"shift":52,"finger":3,"id":4,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":47,"shift":53,"finger":4,"id":5,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":42,"shift":54,"finger":7,"id":6,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":43,"shift":55,"finger":7,"id":7,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":45,"shift":56,"finger":8,"id":8,"altGr":8212,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":37,"shift":57,"finger":9,"id":9,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":64,"shift":48,"finger":10,"id":10,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":91,"shift":38,"finger":10,"id":11,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":93,"shift":126,"finger":10,"id":12,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":20,"finger":10,"id":13,"shift":-1,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":9,"finger":1,"id":14},{"primary":120,"shift":88,"finger":1,"id":15,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":99,"shift":67,"finger":2,"id":16,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":100,"shift":68,"finger":3,"id":17,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":118,"shift":86,"finger":4,"id":18,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":106,"shift":74,"finger":4,"id":19,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":34,"shift":95,"finger":7,"id":20,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":39,"shift":92,"finger":7,"id":21,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":117,"shift":85,"finger":8,"id":22,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":103,"shift":71,"finger":9,"id":23,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":33,"shift":63,"finger":10,"id":24,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":60,"shift":123,"finger":10,"id":25,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":62,"shift":125,"finger":10,"id":26,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":36,"shift":124,"finger":10,"id":27,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":8,"finger":1,"id":28,"shift":-1,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":110,"shift":78,"finger":1,"id":29,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":115,"shift":83,"finger":2,"id":30},{"primary":116,"shift":84,"finger":3,"id":31,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":114,"shift":82,"finger":4,"id":32,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":104,"shift":72,"finger":4,"id":33,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":112,"shift":80,"finger":7,"id":34,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":97,"shift":65,"finger":7,"id":35,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":101,"shift":69,"finger":8,"id":36,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":111,"shift":79,"finger":9,"id":37,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":105,"shift":73,"finger":10,"id":38,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":98,"shift":66,"finger":10,"id":39,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":13,"finger":10,"id":40},{"primary":16,"finger":1,"id":41},{"primary":102,"shift":70,"finger":2,"id":42,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":119,"shift":87,"finger":3,"id":43,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":109,"shift":77,"finger":4,"id":44,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":108,"shift":76,"finger":4,"id":45,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":122,"shift":90,"finger":4,"id":46,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":44,"shift":59,"finger":7,"id":47,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":46,"shift":58,"finger":7,"id":48,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":121,"shift":89,"finger":8,"id":49,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":107,"shift":75,"finger":9,"id":50,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":113,"shift":81,"finger":10,"id":51,"altGr":-1,"shiftAltGr":-1},{"primary":-16,"finger":10,"id":52},{"primary":17,"finger":5,"id":53},{"primary":-91,"finger":5,"id":54},{"primary":18,"finger":5,"id":55},{"primary":32,"finger":5,"id":56},{"primary":-18,"finger":6,"id":57},{"primary":-91,"finger":6,"id":58},{"primary":-93,"finger":6,"id":59},{"primary":17,"finger":6,"id":60}]}
Last edited by BvoFRak (29-Jun-2012 17:20:57)
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@pinkyache: Well, there goes my free time. Learning braille would probably be a better use of my time, but this looks like more fun. Thanks!

...actually after looking at the dotsies page for a few minutes, I think I might NEED braille if I look at this stuff for too long. ARGH, my eyes!


Edit: Also, the dotsies site has a "Type with 5 keys" page which is yet another example of chording. A rather poor one though, as it actually means, "5 keys for letters, but you still need space and punctuation and whatnot".

Last edited by cevgar (29-Jun-2012 15:25:33)
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Holy shit, lots of great stuff going on here. I'll just comment on the tools to create corded/layered layouts: on GNU/Linux, the combination of xchainkeys and crikey (or xdotool, or xte from the xautomation bundle), will let you do all of that. Check it out.


pinkyache said:

You'll be treading charted territory then - why not take the road less traveled?

Sorry but I'm a perfectionist. I don't take roads less traveled. :)


Now brb, I'm learning dotsies!

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