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    Is Colemak suited/recommended for children?

    • Started by glomog
    • 19 Replies:
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    • Registered: 13-Jun-2012
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    I found out about Colemak a few hours ago and I'm excited to try switching from being a QWERTY touch-typist.

    I started teaching my 5 and 7 year old daughters to QWERTY touch-type about 1 week ago. They've learned asdf;lkjei so far. I am wondering if I should teach them Colemak instead, and if learning Colemak will be a disadvantage at their age. They have computer classes at school and I'm 100% certain that their school keyboards are QWERTY.

    Does anyone have experience teaching children Colemak exclusively? If they only learn Colemak, how will they cope when faced with a QUERTY keyboard (type with 2 index fingers)? Should I continue with QWERTY and save Colemak for when they are older?

    Thank you in advance to anyone who can offer advice or their own experience.

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    I haven't got any experience on the matter but I'd say continue with Qwerty. It's a Qwerty world we live in and I think using Colemak is a decision they should make themselves later on. It's got many advantages, but also some disadvantages which are more important for some than others.

    Good luck and let us know how things are going :)

    Last edited by pafkata90 (14-Jun-2012 08:31:02)
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    I'm not so sure I'd agree with pafkata90.  I believe in optimising your own work environment.  With respect to using a computer your choice of physical hardware, operating system, software and keyboard layout can have a huge impact on the way you work.  Therefore do what you can to make it easier.

    If your children are lucky enough to dictate their own environments - or rather they have their own computers and are not confined to their school workstations, then I'd say take advantage of it.

    Changing keyboard layouts isn't trivial - but it's getting far easier for the more modern of operating systems.  Make sure they know how to switch layouts themselves.  You can get by on Qwerty even if you do use another layout for the rare times you need it, and those times where your layout isn't available.  Qwerty is unavoidable. 

    I'd have thought that younger people wouldn't struggle to learn duplicitous keyboarding skills.  The younger you learn, the easier I'd expect it to be.  The biggest challenge I'd have thought would be getting them typing in the first place.  You'll need an activity that encourages typing - something fun.

    If anything I'd seek some advice on correct touch typing technique, and get them into good habits early on.  Including a 'healthy' posture.  You could seek out an experienced tutor for this (however they may not grok Colemak!)  Learning an alternative layout - will at least encourage them to actually type blindly - that's if you don't change the key caps.

    My concern personally would be the lack of a good scientific backing of  Colemak itself, making it harder to justify the layout to others.  Going by the testimonies on this site though, there appears to be a profound preference to the layout over Qwerty - so there is anecdotal evidence supporting it.  Then there is your own belief.  If I personally believed that Colemak was vastly better than Qwerty and thought it was a great skill to have - then I'd be happy to pass that skill on to my kids.

    Either way children are amazingly adaptable - and are fast learners, so I don't think you haven't much to loose.  Learning to touch type later on in life for me was a pain.  It was not a pleasurable experience and  pain drove me to it.  This was partially induced from not touch typing.   I really regret not learning the skill earlier.

    We had about two computer suites when I was at school - and I personally received about 6 lessons (if you can call them that) on an Archimedes computer using typing software.  That hardly made an impression.  I wasn't lucky enough to have access to the lab, or a computer at home to practice on.  Typing is a nice skill to have, and currently text input seems inescapable in many workplaces.  The easier it is to key - the better in my opinion.

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    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    My daughter got a laptop that I'd set up with Ubuntu and Colemak. She uses that at home and whatever she uses at school and otherwise. She says it isn't a problem for her to switch between them, but she hasn't learn proper touch typing yet.

    I believe she'll grow up to be bi-layoutal without significant effort. No problem, all the gain! :)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • Registered: 15-Jun-2012
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    It would really depend on what you are comfortable with.  There is no standard answer to go with this and actually one that would not be workable with any means.  I guess, the solution is to try it on its own rather than base it with a poor judgment still.

    And children really easily so it would be no biggie if they are to go with unfamiliar territory as they are surely going to work their way around them that easy.

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    If the children mostly use Colemak at home, that's very good for them to learn Colemak.

    But in reality, they tend to socialize and go out often, therefore have to use different computers to communicate and to play games with their friends. That would be hard on your children and their friends too if your children use Colemak only.

    At their puberty ages, peer pressure is high, so they tend to do things to stay accepted within the friend circles. Colemak is definitely radical in that aspect.

    In short, I think Colemak is for 18+ only, like sex, alcohol and tobacco.

    And I know most children try sex, beer and marijuana earlier in their lives, so exceptions are accepted too.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (15-Jun-2012 04:38:39)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Tony: They learn QWERTY no matter what, at school for instance. It's like being bilingual - which incidentially is usually a huge advantage to your brain development. ;)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    @tony_vn, you do make me chuckle!  Perhaps a sure fire way for a teenager to learn Colemak:

    "I'm sorry but alternative layouts are for adults only."  OR "If I ever catch you doing Colemak in my house..."  OR  "You must learn Qwerty because that is what everyone else uses."

    --
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    Both Dreymar and pinkyache are making sense. It's fun to discuss things, but it depends not on our discussion but the children to decide whether to learn Colemak.

    I think you guys should ask your own children's opinion and post their fair share of opinions here. Maybe we will get some very thoughtful and matured-beyond-age insight.

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    @tony, Isn't adulthood saved for the day when your parents cease to make good life choices on your behalf - or for when you're forced to make them (or at least have a stab at it) for yourself ?

    Last edited by pinkyache (15-Jun-2012 23:52:09)

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
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    I've got a few friends, to whom I've explained in detail why I use Colemak and why it's better than Qwerty. Some of them find it interesting, but not worth the effort of changing, but most of them just find the problems that comes with it too big, even though I can argue with that. – I'm saying this just to justify my previous post :)

    Now I'm all a about customization and optimization both on the workplace and in the software environment. You'll rarely see me using default shortcuts on most programs and almost everyone considers my computer unusable. But most people aren't all about that, they just don't care. Now teaching your kids just that need for optimization is great. And the others made good points. I think I was too harsh on Colemak on the first post (I was at work...). If they like the idea, maybe go with it. At the end, they'll learn Qwerty, that's inevitable. But knowing Colemak is a great skill.

    One more point: I'm no gamer but I don't see the problem with using Colemak for games? I haven't tried a game that doesn't recognize Colemak or reads the keys weird. I believe all the fairly new games shouldn't have problems with that. Just rebind your keys (as you should anyway haha). Am I missing something? Sorry, that's not on topic. Maybe pm me, or start a new thread :)

    Last edited by pafkata90 (16-Jun-2012 01:42:10)
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    pinkyache said:

    @tony, Isn't adulthood saved for the day when your parents cease to make good life choices on your behalf - or for when you're forced to make them (or at least have a stab at it) for yourself ?

    I think it's a very delicate balance between enforcing the parents' will onto the children and letting the children doing their own thing. Eventually it's the children's choice to type on whichever layout he/she chooses.

    Did your parents enforce you to type on Qwerty only? Did you choose Colemak out of defiance?

    No, it's your choice. And it's your children's too.

    Last edited by Tony_VN (16-Jun-2012 10:36:10)
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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    @Tony: Well, of course I've asked her for her opinion! She's completely cool with Colemak. Duh.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    • From: Grass Valley, California
    • Registered: 19-Jan-2012
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    In the world of Colemak, DreymaR is a hero with special powers. By definition, a Super-Hero. I agree with whatever he says. (Regarding Colemak, that is. I don't know his tastes in food, music, or literature. It is conceivable that he flaws.)

    Specifically, I like his argument that it is valuable to be multilingual. You've probably heard the stereotype:
    > Speaks three languages = trilingual
    > Speaks two languages = bilingual
    > Speaks one language = monolingual, also known as "an American"

    As a monolingual American who has dabbled in German and Spanish, I know how useful it is to understand a little something of another language. And I would really value the ability to communicate in more than one language. Being fluent in QWERTY is a given for all kids nowadays. Adding fluency in Colemak is easy when you're young, and it's a useful, portable, lifetime skill. There is no down side for a kid who is willing to give it a try.

    I'm 52, so I'm well past the "kid" stage. I started learning Colemak this year. It's a good thing to stretch the brain and the fingers. In addition to the brain workout, being extra slow and frustrated will help build character. I love the Caps Lock key being transmogrified to a backspace. Brilliant! My only complaint is that the home row starts "ARST" instead of "ASRT". Moving the "S" key over one space is a difficult transition for me.

    Thanks for the wonderful forum, everybody.

    P.S.  I love pinkyache's psychological technique to entice youngsters:
         "I'm sorry, but alternative layouts are for adults only."

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    Laddie Buck
    > In addition to the brain workout, being extra slow and frustrated will help build character.

    Welcome!  I must remember this quote for work!

    Esperanto is a manufactured language that supposedly once learnt helps you learn other languages more easily.  Or so that's what the proponents suggest.  Perhaps there is something in learning multiple layouts.  Colemak could be some kind of gateway/stepping stone to something else (perhaps a superior layout!)

    Last edited by pinkyache (29-Jun-2012 15:20:43)

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Actually, Esperanto is a... very long and possibly somewhat heated topic. ;-)

    Of late, I've been fascinated by Interlingua. Apparently an even more lost cause than Esperanto but very interesting. Also, a language it makes a little sense to learn since a lot of people should be able to understand it even if they don't speak it - it's a common ground for the Romance languages! (Yes, indeed I am a hopeless romantic, if you'll forgive the pun.)

    And, uh, thanks for the panegyrics I guess! Can I have a little of that grass too please? ;-D

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    For the record, I do not believe that learning another keyboard layout is the same as learning another language. My reasoning goes like this: How many of you started stuttering and slurring in your primary language when learning a secondary language? Anyone? Anybody remember classmates suddenly having trouble piecing together a proper sentence in their native tongue after a foreign language class? Maybe losing points on a written test due to the confusion?

    Now how many of you lost WPM on your primary layout when learning a new one? Decreased accuracy? Second guessing the keys? Possibly even increased finger strain?

    I think I can safely say; I rest my case.


    As for comparing bi-layout to bilingual; it is far easier to switch typing or speaking in different languages, as the mood or need arises, than it is to switch between layouts. I've known plenty of people who will throw in foreign words into a conversation, or switch languages entirely, because they find it easier or better way to express themselves. I have not met anyone who will switch layouts just because it will make a word or two easier to type, then switch back. So the situation becomes one of Colemak on personal computer/devices, Qwerty everywhere else. For the tradeoffs, I don't see it as worthwhile to force this on you kids. It would be like having your kids speak British English at home, and American English at school. Or set all your home computers to use the dotsies font by default. If you are really aiming for the bilingual thing, I'd recommend something with more obvious situational advantages and disadvantages, like ... I dunno, fountain pens... or maybe steno.

    (Steno now has at least one opensource implementation. Plover! Also, a browser demo. Hint: backspace will foul up the demo. If it goes odd, reload.)

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    Cevgar: No, they're not the same. Nevertheless, I don't feel that your examples undermine my point. Language is more inherent to our brains than typing is, and we usually don't remember much from the time we learnt language as little babies using a brain specialized for the task.

    And actually yes, I've experienced confusion when learning other languages. Mostly between the secondary languages but also sometimes in my primary one. :)

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

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    And I've swapped layouts mid sentence.  It was a broken keyboard that brought me to an alternative layout in the first place!  I usually have a very handy shortcut to switch layouts - it doesn't have to be difficult.

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    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    @dreymar, Great to hear about alternatives to Esperanto.  I'd heard about some Indonesian market language, Elvish and Klingon - but that's about it.

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    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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