• You are not logged in.

Qwerty to Colemak

  • Started by Jin
  • 43 Replies:
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818
Jin said:

How long have you been using Dvorak? Is your keyboard placed too high above your waist? Try using proper typing posture if you haven't, or you have only been using the layout for a short time?

Been touch typing for about 15 months.  Attempted many varied positions and postures in the pursuit of comfort.  I acknowledge that one will experience a certain amount of teething trouble - and this might have aggravated my previous condition. I have moved from resting the wrists to floating the hands.  I avoid the mouse and have used it on the left for about 5 years.  I use many keyboard shortcuts, and probably sit at the computer for about 6 hours a day.

I've tried:
* an adjustable standing desk
* resting the keyboard on my lap
* placing the keyboard on the edge of the desk
* placing the keyboard further back on the desk
* tilting the keyboard with positive and negative inclines
* I have raised my seat to lower the keyboard (placing fat books under my feet)

My keying technique has gotten softer with practice (a lot of practice!)  Some days I'm comfortable other days I'm not.

Regarding posture, I've spent days looking for good resources on the web - you get the same old info regurgitated in a thousand forms.  I've spoken to pianists and looked up piano technique, and avidly searched for videos of correct typing technique. I repeatedly stumble across intros to touch typing - and kids doing XYZ layout in a rather crude manner!

I'm particularly curious about finger posture and placement - close ups.

What I have learnt is that there are many varying techniques and one persons comfort is another's misery.

As I've said in other posts, and sorry to go on - I am a bit of a special case, as I was drawn to touch typing and Dvorak after experiencing chronic pain, which was probably a result of years of bad posture and laptop use (I used to be a tech support worker, which meant I hadn't much control over my environment.)

I'm sure there is good quality info out there to be had - but it's hard to find amongst the simple typing intros, commercial interest and amateur advice.

If you have typed for over a decade - and don't experience any pain from typing I'd be interested in seeing and hearing about your technique.  Could you become a touch typing ambassador?  If so get some videos online.

I guess many others are here looking for a solution to work related injury - so it might not be the best place to ask.  Those that mundanely type and don't even feel it - are probably the ones that are doing something right.
   
Thanks for listening.

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

I've been typing for many years and I haven't experienced any problem. I've used both desktops and laptops. I mean, if after so many years and you are still unable to adapt to it then maybe your hands' build aren't suitable for typing. Personally, I really don't think there are any special techniques to it. You just type in whichever position that are more natural and comfortable to you. I think it's best you stay with the standard posture and avoid making too much adjustments like tilting your keyboard with inclines etc.. I mean you can try other layouts, but I doubt it's going to help you any better. I'm sorry I really don't know how I can help you.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

How long have you been touch typing - and from what age?  The sad thing is that I left it so late to learn touch typing.  We only had a handful of computers back in my school days and you were lucky to get near one.  I only recollect having about five mediocre typing lessons in all.

I've had to get used to holding my hands and fingers in a totally new way - a way that felt completely alien to me when I first started out.  And I've had to move fingers that I never really used before when typing.

It may well be that I have a little arthritis in my joints that doesn't help matters but I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet!

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

Not been touch-typing for long, about 8 months or so, but been typing for a long time and never had any problems. I don't know maybe you have damaged your hands too much at that job, but it is really strange that you have the pain for so long.

I think you should have learnt touch-typing as soon as you have experienced the pain before and cease continue typing the way you did that might of got rid of the problem. And I think it's certainly not the layout's problem because Dvorak is considered popular and many people have been using it and majority find it to be a good experience.

Maybe you just need you wait and let it heal. If you experience any pain, I suggest you do not use the keyboard until your hands are completely healed. Other than that I don't know what to say. If you still experience pain in the near future maybe it's the genetic makeup of your hands that you are not suitable to type or perform any work that require rapid movement of the fingers like playing piano, etc..

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

@jin, not wanting to hijack this thread, but to clarify - I had no pain in my wrists, hands and fingers before I learnt how to touch type.  Prior to that, my pain was in my shoulder, neck and head.  Part of which I believe was a result from looking down at the keyboard.  Touch typing has helped me.  Though perhaps it's not the magic bullet that I had hoped for.

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

Oh that's even more strange. Maybe you should try another layout then, maybe Colemak or Workman. See even though I experienced pain with it, but everybody's hands are different so maybe you should give it a try.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818

@jin, perhaps your teething pain is also a result of your recent uptake of touch typing?  The position and stance is really quite different.  Even curving your fingers to the home position - can feel quite strained when you first start out and for me it creates some tension in my hands.  As you grow more practiced, it's possible to loosen the hands and fingers up a little. I have tried Colemak (albeit briefly) - and I'd feel more pain in the left than Dvorak without a doubt.  For me the next thing to try is a different keyboard - I'll try a split one.

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

I've never experienced pain with Qwerty whatsoever, I wanted to switch because I was drawn to it by its  ergonomic claims, but once I switched to Colemak, I had a problem. And I believe one should not feel pain whatsoever, no matter if you're starting a new layout or not. If you experience pain means something is not right. I'm now at 30wpm average with Dvorak and so far no problem yet. I hope it continues this way.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 14-Jan-2011
  • Posts: 163

Jin Here is my dvorak experience after around month and 12 days, with around 13 days lost due to training on Imak and neglecting dvorak where I reached a max speed of 57WPM. I must also say that I have never made an attempt to make any lessons for dvorak of the difficult words as I used to do with colemak and beside the intensive first 11 days I am all the time at gym training and swimming or walking in the nature and I practice when I come home for 1 hour on typeracer and hi games and thats it. The beautiful thing is that the layout jumps with you into speed with burst. For example, I was around 50 then I jumped to 56 then 63 and today 67 WPM for five minutes test on high game. I only jump when I concentrate at accuracy and I never jumped when typing fast, so focus on accuracy and as your muscle memory increase you will see bursts in speed. I think the reason why people say that it took them long time to reach 100 WPM on Dvorak is that the right hand pinky needs time to train and become muscular :) and the left hand index also needs to train to stretch fast to the i key and by time I think you will notice that actually you left hand index is hovering not over u but over the space between u an i and sometimes over i.  Now comparing my experience with dvorak to Colemak, It took me half the training time to reach this speed where after 43 days on Colemak I was at a speed of 64 WPM for 5 minutes test https://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=997.  Moreover, it is true that Colemak utilizes the home key better than dvorak, but the secret is in alternation which I have proofed through simple test that it was much faster than rolls. Actually, dvorak  is not a perfect layout in terms of speed and the speed could be further enhanced as I did with IDvork but I think dvorak made it like this (the u before the i) to suit a all typists. Anyways, the most important thing to me is that I am typing with ease and comfort at this speed which I never did on both QWERTY and Colemak.
Here is a snap shot of my record today.

dvorakspeed.png

Finally I have a layout that I have designed beside Imak and it is called Imakfanton, I have never tested it because I was testing the versions of Imak and I would like somebody to help me and test it. In testing this layout at http://www.codesharp.co.uk/dvorak/Sampl … /News.html  it gives me more alternation than dvorak and it has the lowest finger ration among all layouts especially if y is moved above i, and even if It stayed in its current position it still has lower finger ratio than any other layout. I like this layout because it doesn't have any major rolls between the pinky and the ring finger, but what I did not like before I try dvorak is that it was biased to the right hand slightly less than dvorak, and it turns out that this is not a problem with dvorak at all. The other thing that I did not like is sometime you have to type 4 letters using the right hand, like atio in vocation, but actually this is a very fast roll, and the good thing with this layout is that it still preserve the punctuation in place.
The layout comes in two flavors with only difference in the placement of keys of the left hand side, and both placement are good although I prefer the one in the image show below

imakfantom.png

the id of the other version which keeps the home row on the left side in inward roll is

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,46,44,31,16,45,24,33,23,21,38,25,26,27,28,18,30,34,47,37,20,19,29,17,22,39,40,41,42,32,48,35,43,15,36,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60

which you can load here to see.
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

Hey sorry for the late reply. I haven't been in this forum for a while. Anyway, I'm loving the Dvorak. Can type average 70wpm and very comfortable. I really would like to help you test it but I just can't do this anymore mentally, but I hope you find success in your new layout.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 28-Jul-2011
  • Posts: 1

I doubt if that guy said he would hurt the layout of the finger, you through your experience has already proved, I believe you.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 14-Jan-2011
  • Posts: 163
Jin said:

Hey sorry for the late reply. I haven't been in this forum for a while. Anyway, I'm loving the Dvorak. Can type average 70wpm and very comfortable. I really would like to help you test it but I just can't do this anymore mentally, but I hope you find success in your new layout.

Do not worry my friend I have done the testing and it was not quite successful and I had to do some changes. Like you I loved dvorak and I am still dvoraking :) at least for the last five days I have been using dvorak exclusively and now I reached 72 WPM on high games for five minutes, and I know if I give dvorak more time it  would be certainly possible to average in the 80s , 90's and even 100's :). BTW is the account jin H(jin168) on Typeracer belongs to you. If so, I can see that you have made a great progress congratulation. Mine is Dvoraken for the dvorak Layout.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 28-Aug-2011
  • Posts: 1

Okay; thank you for the information!

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

lol how did you find my account? I couldn't find that option.

Let's have a race!

Last edited by Jin (17-Sep-2011 16:05:27)
Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818
Jin said:

I'm not an expert at it, but I don't think there's really any typing techniques - your hands will gradually learn to flow on the keyboard effortlessly after long periods of practice when you reach to the high speeds say 60 and up. But proper touch-typing technique (using the right fingers to hit the right keys) is a must if you want to achieve that, and also proper typing posture. When you learn to type at first, your hands tend to press the keys really hard because you are unfamiliar with the letters in the layout, but once you are accustomed to it you will simply float from one to the next without any effort. You can find many links on google for typing postures.

I think it gets easier over time with practice, and concur with most of the above.  Initially my hands and fingers really ached.  That's what brought me here in the first place.  It felt like I was the only one who had a problem.  Perhaps those that had been touch typing for years had just forgotten about their own teething issues.

Last edited by pinkyache (07-Dec-2011 11:40:38)

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 14-Jan-2011
  • Posts: 163
Jin said:

lol how did you find my account? I couldn't find that option.

Let's have a race!

It raced a jin car on typeracer several times during the period that you and I were learning Dvorak, and I searched for the profile in http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/leaders.php

pinkyache said:

I think this is good advice.  It just gets easier over time with practice.  Initially my hands and fingers really ached.  That's what brought me here in the first place.  It felt like I was the only one who had a problem.  Perhaps those that had been touch typing for years had just forgotten about their own teething issues.

Not really. I have been touch typing around 10 years using QWERTY ( now I use Imak), and although I felt normal for a while, damage in the tissues and wrist was accumulating until it was manifest for the last 3.5 years. So if you are using a bad layout, you might have a false sense of wellness initially, but later when your muscles becomes ischemic and start to tighten you will start to feel the impact that will degrade your life. Withdrawal symptoms of some medication could also play a role in bad feeling in the fingers, for example, taking narcotic like paxil and stopping it will give you a needle pain in the fingers, which would make your typing experience not pleasant. other disease, like arthritis  in the fingers will definitely cause pain while typing.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 7
  • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
  • Posts: 818
nimbostratue said:

Not really. I have been touch typing around 10 years using QWERTY ( now I use Imak), and although I felt normal for a while, damage in the tissues and wrist was accumulating until it was manifest for the last 3.5 years.

I was agreeing that when beginning to touch type we probably stress the fingers more.

I agree with you that the pain and damage can creep in slowly and build up over time.  I get annoyed with people that espouse that computer related injury is all in the mind, and that it's easily surmountable.

--
Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 14-Jan-2011
  • Posts: 163
pinkyache said:

.... I get annoyed with people that espouse that computer related injury is all in the mind, and that it's easily surmountable.

I must excuse people, because I used to think like them before, and not only for injury's that come from typing, but for other injury's that come from putting the computer on your belly, sitting too much on the desk, Weight lifting, etc. I did not think these could cause me any injury or damage to my body, and If it would, it would go away very quickly, until I one day I discovered the opposite in very very hard way, but it was too late :).

Offline
  • 0
  • Reputation: 0
  • Registered: 18-May-2011
  • Posts: 26

Hey nimbostratue, I see you made great progress in your speed. I've changed my Typeracer account, it's theoh.

Offline
  • 0