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1st Sentence of Website is Incorrect

  • Started by Werew
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  • From: Viken, Norway
  • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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I wouldn't stress the backspace thing too much. In my mind it's an option not a must for Colemak and I use another solution. Yes, it's a default for many installers and suchlike but the ideal should be a modular approach (which Windows currently doesn't quite support).

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Werew said:

I never learned to touch type using QWERTY.  I chose Colemak over Dvorak when I decided to learn as an undergraduate for three reasons.  As DreymaR said, Colemak was optimized using modern equipment unavailable to Dvorak.  I don't use the Caps Lock key, and an extra Backspace key is useful.  Most importantly, keyboard shortcuts don't change.

That being so, I'm sure the design of Colemak was intended for those familiar with Qwerty.  And the whole swap less keys than Dvorak thing was a good short cut to better home row optimisation that preserved some short cuts.

Without the layout creator detailing their methodology you don't actually know if Colemak was optimised using modern equipment.  For all we know Shai just tried different layouts and took the one that felt best.

The layout has certainly got its roots steeped in Qwerty.  For richer or poorer.

If Shai is reading this thread, then I'd love to hear about the voyage of discovery.  Or even a little paragraph detailing the whys and hows of its beginnings.  I read that the layout  originally won a competition, what was this, what was the inspiration?

Others have said that the evolution and description can be found in scattered posts in the forum, that is hard to piece together without lots of reading.  A summary would be nice.

Last edited by pinkyache (11-Apr-2014 14:53:50)

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pinkyache said:

I think you can tuck that Qwerty pre-amble somewhere else.  Improve upon the design of Qwerty.  Or something to do with home row typing.

Unfortunately, I don't think so.  There's enough misinformation going around that a not-uncommon reaction might be "hah, but these layouts are no better than QWERTY!"  Thus, I thought I should immediately list some ways in which (if the reader even takes a moment to look) QWERTY is obviously flawed.


Shortcuts section (very raw):

Colemak preserves most of QWERTY's left-side Ctrl- shortcuts, and actually improves on several others.

pnzqwDf.png

Green shortcuts are preserved on their QWERTY positions.

Blue shortcuts are improved from their QWERTY positions.

Ctrl-S is minutely worsened (though placed on a stronger finger).  Ctrl-D and E are significantly worsened.


Though Colemak uses Backspace in the QWERTY Caps Lock position by default, using Ctrl is also possible for shortcut-intensive users.

Destructive shortcuts (e.g. Ctrl-Q, Ctrl-W, Ctrl-X) tend to be preserved.

Emacs-users may find C-r/C-s (for incremental reverse/forward search) amazing.

Last edited by lalop (11-Apr-2014 15:12:26)
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I'd suggest green for improvement and blue for conservation. More intuitive I think.

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DreymaR said:

I'd suggest green for improvement and blue for conservation. More intuitive I think.

I think it was because that was the only color with two shades on the keyboard layout analyzer.  But now that it's done, I think, psychologically, having a lot of green is also better.

davkol said:

B (bold/bookmark) is kept in place as well as is H (history). If we assume use of the right Control key, I (italic/information) and O (open) are probably in better positions too.

I don't think I would include keys as far away as B. 

RightCtrl is so much more annoying to hit I just don't use it.  That may be partially due to my laptop keyboard, but is also due to the lack of a near-home-row spot to put it.

davkol said:

However, I'm strongly against promotion of one-handed shortcuts that make use of pinkies, because of more stress put on wrists and pinkies. (Moreover, the whole QWERTY compatibility thing is a double-edged sword, but that's a different story.)

I'm not really sure what to make of these suggestions, but feel free to write an alternative advocation that I might synthesize.

Last edited by lalop (13-Apr-2014 10:19:48)
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The home row thing is actually mentioned on Shai's pages, namely the 'Fun page' where a text passage purely written on the Colemak home row is quoted. That wouldn't be easy on QWERTY!

If you list advantages, the hotkeys are such an advantage and should be listed. I'm technically oriented and I like the ZXCVBQW consistency. Furthermore, using my Extend mappings nothing is broken really unless it's one of those games where you can't remap stuff; those will cost me a press of Ctrl+Shift+` before I start playing.

I think you're wrong about the language analogy: Yes, people do indeed mix their Spanish or Russian into their English and speak with heavy accents! Not sure why you haven't seen that happen. As for QWERTZ vs QWERTY, both of them are pointless and used by people who don't care about layouts so it's bound to be frustrating. Colemak and QWERTY aren't exactly similar although not as extremely different as for instance Dvorak is, but I think that's an advantage since it makes it easier to switch back and forth than the dvorak layout did. So my "evidence" albeit single-person beats your conjecture I believe. ;)

I agree on mentioning the rolls. It's often mentioned that Colemak has less hand alternation and the rolls are a compensation for that (unless you hate rolls and love alternation for some reason).

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davkol said:

I suck at marketing stuff; IMHO there's an omitted killer feature: Sure, QWERTY touch typist can use Tarmak. But what about those, who can't touch type? Well, the most common letters are on the home row: no more boring FFFJJJJJ- classes! (How many words can by typed on the home row only on each layout anyway?) Moreover, the (semi)colon isn't on the home row anymore.

Well, the point of a killer feature is to be at least somewhat exclusive to a platform; otherwise, it doesn't really encourage choosing one over another.

Virtually every optimized layout has those same benefits you mentioned, and focusing too hard on them (much like, I think, the site currently does) doesn't actually help the prospector out of decision paralysis.  Instead, we should emphasize from the start: there are unique, useful reasons to choose Colemak over those other options!

davkol said:

I wouldn't put too much stress on the hotkeys, because Colemak seems to attract technical people and users of unix-like systems (it works out of the box there too). It breaks the most common commands in apps with vi-like controls... and it breaks controls in most games (wasd in action games, left-side-centric hotkeys in RTS').

Alternatively, the people/programs for whom it "just works" don't have much to say, while those who need, or have just managed to fix their hotkeys tend to post here more often.

Exact stats may be impossible, but I find it hard to believe the shortcuts aren't responsible for a lot of migration; it's the clearest benefit over the more standard and popular Dvorak (aside from Tarmak, which is currently hard to discover).

Last edited by lalop (14-Apr-2014 13:16:25)
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There's a point in here. The advocacy has to address two distinct audiences: Those who didn't know alternative layouts existed and may be convinced that they can be beneficial, and those who are into layout switching but need to choose between dvorak and Colemak and the plethora of alternatives available.

For the former, any and all benefits of Colemak over QWERTY are important.

For the latter, a comparison of Colemak to dvorak and others is relevant.

I think the front page should address both, but those who are already hooked on switching will be more motivated to follow a link to more info so the detailed comparisons should be elsewhere. That's how it is today, more or less, but it can be a bit tricky to navigate today's site map I think.

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Oh, sorry about the misunderstanding. So what you're saying is that people who learn both English and German as foreign languages can get them mixed up? I still don't feel convinced, as I don't see that happen much (but I suppose it'd happen even less for learners of both Russian and Spanish). Also, languages aren't keyboards.

It's impressive that some people can type several layouts fluently (and blindly I suppose). Those may be impressive people of course! :)

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lalop said:

I'd second the existence of gradual transitioning* as a killer feature, if not the killer feature of colemak. As the website itself says:

Memorization isn't linear

Memorizing a 16 character random password (e.g. WLJc8Rs2MqwChYM1) takes much more time than memorizing an 8 character random password (e.g. pK3QCfyT) (more than twice the time). Colemak moves only 17 keys, while Dvorak moves 33 keys.

What better way to drive that point home than to make it official: transition just 3-5 keys at a time! Dvorak would practically look like a dinosaur..


* for QWERTY touchtypists only

Going off on a tangent here I have to say it depends on the memory technique.

As someone who has learned how to memorize a shuffled pack of 52 playing cards backwards and forwards in 8 minutes, pi up to 250 digits and all the phone numbers of friends and family this isn't strictly true if you use the peg system coupled with the major memory system technique.

It involves pre-memorizing a journey in your head or places around a location you are very familiar with, you then convert the letters and numbers of the password/credit card number or whatever it is you wish to remember to objects performing actions using your imagination and then you attach the objects to the pre-memorized places in imaginative ways.

For example I will never forget my credit card number because I use vision of my bicycle with a lot of weird stuff going on on it. The weirder the image the easier it is to remember without effort. There is a rhinocerous charging around the front wheel, there is milkshake balancing on the handlebars, there is a nun pushing a tonne weight around the rear wheel..., the images are very silly but I will never forget the number :).

This is a very powerful technique and is what the world memory champions use and is more or less linear in terms of the time required vs the length of the password.

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This is true and I've used this kind of technique myself – although I didn't get around to more than a hundred digits of π before I got too bored. ;) I still use it for phone and other numbers.

But it's doubtful whether this applies to keyboard layout learning at all! You're not learning sequences as you'll be typing different stuff every day (unless you're in The Shining – *shudder*), and you won't have time to recall by images when you're hammering away at the keyboard at several strokes per second!

Last edited by DreymaR (22-Apr-2014 10:02:52)

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It may not be attractive to most people, but for people like me who use no control shortcuts/hotkeys/bindings and don't care about the placement of these default shortcuts, colemak still offers good placement for letter bindings. For example, y and p are copy (yank) and paste universally for me and are in much better positions than for qwerty.

One thing that's actually nice (though probably only for me) is how some keys are moved OFF of the home row or away from better positions. This allows for better mnemonics for keys. For example, "l" is no longer in the direction area (hjkl) and I can use it as "last" (last cursor position, last tab, last window, last split, last buffer in win history, etc.). d (delete) and f (find) are displaced (still to decent positions) so I can keep the mnemonics for those keys and replace their desirable positions (now s and t) with actions I use more often (with their own nice mnemonics). Obviously this could all be rebound to be only dependent on actual location on the keyboard and some mnemonics are messed up, but I find it kind of nice (which might just be me adapting to the layout more than anything).

Also, I agree that the method of loci and other mnemonic techniques don't really apply when getting a keyboard layout into your muscle memory. I memorized the actual colemak layout first thing when I started using it, but it's not as if I was suddenly able to type it perfectly because of that.

Last edited by angelic_sedition (22-Apr-2014 22:29:17)
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