• You are not logged in.

    New user - alt. symbol layout

    • Started by trace9r
    • 11 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 03-Jul-2011
    • Posts: 1

    Hello,

    I'm a new user that has been using Colemak for a while now, and I'm really glad I switched from QWERTY... My speed on Colemak is slowly approaching my QWERTY speed, but my typing is much more comfortable.  I appreciate all the work that Shai has put into this.  I've been telling people about Colemak, and I carry the layout around on my keychain to use on other PC's.

    Anyway, I was interested to read some threads in the forum by programmers who change their symbol layout.  I've done something like this (although with just a few symbols) but mainly to facilitate prose writing.  Here's the layout I'm using (number and bottom rows only):

    `1234567890/=
    ...
       zxcvbkm,.?


    and shifted:

    ~!@#$%^&*<>_+
    ...
       ZXCVBKM-()


    Basically, the only symbols I was targeting for relocation were the hyphen '-', the parentheses () and the question mark (?).

    I use the hyphen so much -- not just to separate phrases -- but think of all the words you can construct that start with ex-, pro-, bi-, tri-, co- etc.  It has always felt awkward reaching up for the hyphen when it's almost as common as the period.  (I'm purely speculating about this; I haven't run any analysis on the frequency of prose symbols!)  Try typing "co-operate" in Colemak.  It's awkward, but I don't fault Colemak; the letters are placed comfortably, I just think that the hyphen placement is less-than-perfect.  So I brought it down to the comma key (shifted).  Dvorak places the hyphen in place of the apostrophe, but I believe the latter is better suited for the home row.

    The parentheses I also wanted closer to the action.  I kept them on the same fingers, but moved them to the bottom row.  I put these guys <> in their old spot.

    Lastly, I got the good ol' question mark out of the rafters.  Why we've thought all these years that the forward slash needed quicker access than the question mark, I'll never know.  Could it be that symbol placement on early typewriters were the result of their general use in banking and business? It's definitely easier to type fractions without having to shift to access the forward slash, so I put it where the hyphen used to be -- closer to the numbers.  I dropped the question mark down to the un-shifted position on the same key.  This is turning out to be a very comfortable placement.  Incidentally, after I made this switch, I was reading up on Dvorak and one of the earlier configurations had the question mark un-shifted where QWERTY 'Q' resides.  However, for some reason this change did not survive into the modern DSK layout (see Wiki page).


    Anyway, if anyone has any feedback on this, or if someone has run some analysis on symbol frequency in prose writing, I'd be interested to look at that.  Granted, symbols aren't used nearly as much as letters in non-programming instances; which is why, I'm guessing, many alternative keyboard layouts focus primarily on letter placement.  But symbols definitely are used enough in day-to-day typing to consider more ideal placement.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    'co-operate'; hmmm... I don't feel it's a lot of trouble. (Besides, shouldn't it be 'coöperate' instead, hehe?) Maybe it's because my 'neutral' position is at the top of the home row keys and my wrists are straight so the stretch isn't that long? I also use a Wide layout so the hyphen key sits one position to the right from its traditional position but that shouldn't matter all that much.

    I experimented with a few such optimisations when I started out with Colemak, but I fell back on all of them. Switching the colon and semicolon seemed like a great idea but it turns out to create more confusion than it was worth. Same thing with parentheses. One issue is the transition to QWERTY keyboards which almost everyone have to use temporarily at times. Making that transition more confusing than necessary means sacrificing one of Colemak's benefits at least partially. (Says the guy who uses ergonomic key remappings that confuse the hell out of him when using unmapped boards... *sigh*)

    I think the question mark is okay because it follows suit with its' sibling the exclamation mark. It does seem slightly more logical to have it unshifted but with use the Shift key isn't so daunting after all. Mind you, typists need to be good at using both Shift keys effortlessly, as they use capital letters a lot more than question marks anyway!

    So in summary: Some optimisations may seem like a good idea but in my experience they aren't worth the effort and confusion.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 2
    • From: Aalborg, Denmark
    • Registered: 18-Feb-2011
    • Posts: 166

    I agree with Dreymar, it creates more confusion than good. Unfortunately.

    But I also feel the frustration when "o" and "-" are adjacent. One good thing I find in a lot of the non-US qwerties is that the hyphen is on the US "/?" key (with "/" and "?" relegated to other locations). Like that, "co-operate" shouldn't be harder than "piazza", "bazaar", "hazard", "lazarus" etc., but somehow it still feels like that for me. I guess practice is the way forward :-)

    And just be glad you're not russian -- they have comma as the shifted version of period!

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    One thing that always annoys the hell out of me is how the plus sign is on a shifted key. In the Scandinavian layouts it's the equals sign that's shifted (and they aren't on the same key anymore). Both are important and common though, it's not easy to choose. At any rate, the Scandinavian layouts are inconvenient for many reasons so I don't use their punctuation anymore.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 2
    • From: Aalborg, Denmark
    • Registered: 18-Feb-2011
    • Posts: 166

    And yet you don't want to swap punctuation around because it is confusing when using other people's keyboards :-)

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    You got me, hehe. :)

    Actually, I consider it fundamentally simpler to advocate one set of punctuation for all nationalities than supporting a slew of national layouts with almost completely unmotivated differences in punctuation placement! Of course there needs to be different national layouts because we have all these fun characters like æøå, but the differences should be kept to what's necessary and sensible so it's a lot easier to swap between national layouts too!

    Once I learnt the US punctuation placements, I stuck with those. This also helps whenever I meet a US keyboard (which happens now and then) - especially fun when a US layout is set on a board marked with the Scandinavian punctuation placements which confuses the hell out of my colleagues but I'm able to type the symbols because I know their places! :D

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 2
    • From: Aalborg, Denmark
    • Registered: 18-Feb-2011
    • Posts: 166
    DreymaR said:

    the differences should be kept to what's necessary and sensible so it's a lot easier to swap between national layouts too!

    Yes......

    I guess it went something like this in Scandinavia:

    1) We need æøå/äöå on easily accessible keys (and lets use different locations in Denmark compared to Norway and Sweden (and Germany even) *)
    2) We need {}[] whose keys we just took on new locations. Let's make it symmetrical with {[]} on 7890.
    3) Move () to follow the symmetry, i.e. to 89 instead of 90 (If just {[]} had been {}[] this idiotic step wasn't needed**)
    4) Fix the gigantic f***up of placing the hyphen so far away and move it to /?
    5) Find a new spot for doublequote. It's more common than @ so that was not too bad.
    6) Let's place the most useless symbol ever (¤) on shift-4 instead of $ just to annoy people.
    7) Let's mix up the locations of ½§\| to make three different versions for Norway, Sweden and Denmark just to annoy people some more.


    *: In Danish, æ is used around 25% more than ø but both are close to 0.5% of letters so I'm not sure it mattered that much. Also, interestingly, the Swiss layouts have something like this as well: Swiss German has öäéà on the two keys to the right of qwerty L (é and à being the shifted versions of ö and ä) while Swiss French has it the other way around: éàöä. This seems to make much more sense because those letters are used so much more in the specific language.

    **: Germany and other have this {[]} as well so maybe it was just a good idea to do the same in Scandinavia. But maybe the Netherlands got it better: All six symbols on 89: shift for (), alt gr for {}, alt gr+shift for []. They could still have used 90 instead of 89 though. Or maybe the Swiss got it right: Alt gr + the two keys right of qwerty P to get [] (same keys as US!) and alt gr + the two keys below to get {}.

    ***: I used to think Unix' hyphen for command line flags was so much better than DOS/Windows' slash until I found out that hyphen is 300 miles from your fingers on the US layout and / is just nearby. But at least slash as pathsep is good on Unix and it is also used as search in vi/m and less (and firefox even) which is nice. (Also, did I just let my censorship symbols double as a footnote. Yes I did).


    DreymaR said:

    Once I learnt the US punctuation placements, I stuck with those. This also helps whenever I meet a US keyboard (which happens now and then) - especially fun when a US layout is set on a board marked with the Scandinavian punctuation placements which confuses the hell out of my colleagues but I'm able to type the symbols because I know their places! :D

    I tried the same this summer setting up a bunch of computers with Ubuntu which defaults to US. I knew the US punctuation on a Danish keyboard better than the other guys. They were a lot better at qwerty though ;-)

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 13-Sep-2011
    • Posts: 5
    DreymaR said:

    Once I learnt the US punctuation placements, I stuck with those. This also helps whenever I meet a US keyboard (which happens now and then) - especially fun when a US layout is set on a board marked with the Scandinavian punctuation placements which confuses the hell out of my colleagues but I'm able to type the symbols because I know their places! :D

    I'm in the exact opposite situation now working with a bunch of Scandinavian colleagues and they essentially tease me when I get lost with some of the punctuation. I'm feeling a little bit envious. It sounds like there are a few of these application companies that have really started a trend with the new typing systems. Have you guys heard of mutual mobile, the application development place?

    Last edited by typeloud (01-Oct-2011 20:09:02)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 214
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,364

    If it helps the envy, know that the Scandinavian punctuation sucks badly - erw summoned it up rather nicely above. Nothing to be envious about there, just trust us on that.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 23-Nov-2011
    • Posts: 3

    I too would have to agree with Dreymar here. The method suggested by you, although might help you get the result you are intending to obtain, sounds more or less complicated to me. Hence it would be better if you can skip this method and follow what Dreymar has suggested here.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 23-Nov-2011
    • Posts: 2

    My comment is; One has to do with it as it is; and do the best of it

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 23-Nov-2011
    • Posts: 2

    Dreymar, if Scandinavian punctuation sucks, got to play...

    Offline
    • 0