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    Dozenal support

    • Started by M1n1f1g
    • 9 Replies:
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    • Registered: 13-Dec-2011
    • Posts: 8

    I'm part of a little movement that advocates the use of base twelve, as opposed to base ten. I'll not go into many details, but it requires two extra digits, representing ten and eleven. Unfortunately, these do not exist in Unicode at the moment, so we have to make do with alternatives. For the sake of simplicity, let's use A and B to represent them. Now, partly because of this, and partly because I cannot make custom keyboard layouts for this computer, this discussion will be totally theoretical. I hope that's okay.

    Anyway, my problem is trying to fit the two extra digits onto the numrow (and possibly also the numpad). I want 0 to be first, rather than last, so that it will be in a good position for both decimal and dozenal. My initial thought is to have this:
    Standard numrow:
    `1234567890-=
    New numrow:
    0123456789AB=

    Inevitably, it's missing two keys. However, since I'm using the Chrome OS US Colemak layout on an EU keyboard, the - button has been duplicated in the \ key's space, while \ has been moved onto UK QWERTY's # key (and # is on shift-3, UK QWERTY's £ key). I do miss ~ though. Anyway, that leaves us with `. Does anyone use that? I used it for a while as a dozenal point, but then I made a shortcut for ′ and started using that.

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    • From: Aalborg, Denmark
    • Registered: 18-Feb-2011
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    What a crazy project. Almost as crazy as not using QWERTY :-P

    Unicode does have something that could be used: ⑽ and ⑾. They're in the enclosed alphanumerics block.

    Some languages use the accent key as a dead key, which can be pretty important. But on the other hand if you use the original AltGr layer of Colemak, it helps with many accented characters, including most of the ones I use (Danish, French, Spanish). But that could be different for other languages.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
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    Hmmm... I for one would love an explanation why you'd want to use a duodecimal system instead of a hexadecimal one! Are you inspired by the ancient Babylonians or something? :)

    The numpad I can see, but why you'll want to rework the standard number row is less clear. I'd just put the extra signs on AltGr mappings, either of the numbers 1-2 or under the letters A and B (in line with the traditional hexadecimal notation).

    Those Unicode points erw found are interesting but since they're very decimal-centric they may be a bit wrong for a bona fide duo- or hexadecimal user. ;)

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    DreymaR said:

    Hmmm... I for one would love an explanation why you'd want to use a duodecimal system instead of a hexadecimal one!

    Well, you asked, here goes. Dozenal (as us dozenists call it) gives us the two most common prime factors, 2 and 3. It neglects decimal's 5, which is 2/5 times less common than 3 in pure mathematical terms. 3 gives us better variety than hexadecimal's 2^4. Twelve is a SHCN, which means that it is very divisible for its size. Size is important. Base 6 would have been good, if it wasn't for it being so small. Hexadecimal is bordering on being too big, with a multiplication table with 105 non-trivial unique facts, vs. 55 for dozenal (and 36 for decimal, although we usually learn up to 12*12 (hence 55 facts) anyway).

    Hexadecimal does appear to handle 3 and 5 in an okay fashion. However, this is quite deceptive. It handles 3 an 5 as well as decimal handles 3. This is not ideal, although may be considered. Unfortunately, eleven is prime, so other dozenal numbers don't benefit as much as they do in decimal, hexadecimal, or senary (senary also gains a small advantage of covering 7 (as base + 1), in the same way as "11" in any base). It is better to have proper factors, rather than omega/alpha related factors.

    That explanation was probably a bit of a mess, and here is a better - but longer - document. The person who wrote it takes base choice very seriously, and has experimented with bases as high as 2520!

    To reply to erw, people have drawn up symbols for ten and eleven, the most common ones being a rotated 2 or cursive X for ten, and a reversed 3 for eleven (for which I use open capital E - Ɛ). Unfortunately, there is no suitable digit ten in Unicode, and we'd also want to have all twelve digits lined up contiguously (as the decimal ones are). The enclosed alphanumerics have the problem DreymaR pointed out.

    P.S. yes, it is fairly crazy.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    I salute you, lovely crazies of the world! How boring it'd be without you.

    I like the idea of a cursive X for ten and Ɛ for eleven - those make sense to me! :) There's a problem with using any kind of E of course, since that'll easily be misunderstood for the hexadecimal fifteen or a 3. If it were my choice, I'd probably go for an L instead despite the mix-up possibilities versus Roman numerals (cfr this article for instance). Then a T for twelve and Þ or Y (since the old eth rune looks like our Y) for thirteen. Oops, I've overshot your dozen. :)

    But I'll rather roll with the computing needs and stick to octal and hex. The mathematical handling of 3 weighs less to me. Even so, I now understand better than before why the Babylonians based their maths on sixes and tens I think.

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-Jan-2012 20:32:49)

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    • Registered: 08-Mar-2008
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    Probably your best option is to use an embedded (or separate) numeric keypad:

    <code>
    9 A B
    6 7 8
    3 4 5
    0 1 2
    </code>

    And you could put operations to the side, or even have rows of 4 instead of 3:

    <code>
    8 9 A B
    4 5 6 7
    0 1 2 3
    </code>

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    • Registered: 13-Dec-2011
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    4 columns would work nicely, it's one for each finger. I'm thinking about having keyboard shortcuts of ctrl+alt+(key), since there aren't many things that use them and, since I don't have a Windows key, ctrl+alt is really easy to press for me (I can fit 4 fingers on the two keys). With that, I'd want to use the right of the keyboard, possibly UK QWERTY's 9..# keys. Unfortunately, that gives no US support, but this thing is only for me at the moment!

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    • Registered: 08-Dec-2010
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    Ten base comes from total number of fingers in our two hands. For ancient people, more than ten which use up all their fingers would be all classified "too many" to count.

    If our two hands had twelve fingers, twelve base would be the standard base.

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    • From: Viken, Norway
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    Your big toes are pretty agile...  :D

    I know Tony, it's just crazy isn't it. At least, if we were toons we'd use an octal system which makes much more sense when working with computers. Haha.

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    You know, the Dozenal Society of America's mascot is a panda. They have 6 digits on each hand, apparently. It'd be nice for typing, anyway. Imagine that, a panda on a computer!

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