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    Usage of Shift Backspace?

    • Started by nimbostratue
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    I wonder if anybody have usage for shift+backspace. On windows XP the combo shift+Backspace acts as normal backspace, but I am not sure of the behavior on other OS, I wonder if anybody has usage for this.

    On Colemak the backspace is placed in a good position, and if there is no usage for shift+backspace I would suggest:
    1- making Shit + backspace act like Ctrl+backspace i.e delete a whole word. This easier to type inone hand by pressing the small pinky on both keys simultaneously.
    2- making Shit+ backspace produce a symbol.

    Which do you think is better?

    Edit: I guess the behavior deleting a whole word (Ctrl+backspace) is common in most editors, but it does not work in notepad under my old Winxp

    Last edited by nimbostratue (03-Jan-2012 18:00:23)
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    I've been using the Shift+Backspace as Ctrl+Backspace for a good few months now and I love it. I don't think I've used Shift+Backspace for anything before. I'm working on Windows 7. Actually my RShift+BS is Ctrl+BS. My LShift+BS is Del :)

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    I prefer chording: CapsLock+S+T+UNEI means Shift-Ctrl-arrows for instance. Or CapsLock+T+O means Ctrl-Backspace to delete a word. Works great with PKL Extend mode in Windows, but not yet with the X.Org server in Linux (I have arrows but not the chording modifiers).

    Last edited by DreymaR (03-Jan-2012 18:37:39)

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    The arrows on UNEI or HNEI are extremely useful, you might think about that. I personally am using Alt+UNEI → Ctrl+Arrow and Win+.. → Just arrows. Combination with shift also works fine. I don't want to get off-topic but it's all kinda connected.

    Last edited by pafkata90 (03-Jan-2012 19:58:35)
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    pafkata90 said:

    I've been using the Shift+Backspace as Ctrl+Backspace for a good few months now and I love it. I don't think I've used Shift+Backspace for anything before. I'm working on Windows 7. Actually my RShift+BS is Ctrl+BS. My LShift+BS is Del :)

    strangely I enough I find myself using the delete a lot, and strangely enough I was thinking of finding a better position for it today, and here you are giving me a very nice idea that allows me to map 3 functions. Now I can find more space and place my mapping LShift+BS to something and RShit+BS to something . I could even extend this to map other keys especially on the right hand where I can utilize the Ctrl, Enter, etc... Thanks for the input :)

    DreymaR said:

    I prefer chording: CapsLock+S+T+UNEI means Shift-Ctrl-arrows for instance. Or CapsLock+T+O means Ctrl-Backspace to delete a word. Works great with PKL Extend mode in Windows, but not yet with the X.Org server in Linux (I have arrows but not the chording modifiers).

    Brilliant idea, I often use the arrows due to my programming style because I usually write something like this for(){}  in order not hit the shift too many times and in order to reduce the chance of forgetting an enclosing symbol, but I pay in terms or speed reduction and the fact that I have to use the arrows to go back and fill the expression section and the body of the for loop. Now If I mapped on QWERTY Tap+CapsLock+ jckl I can emulate the arrows and there is no need to leave the center of the keyboard :). Great Now, I have new ideas, which should keep me occupied for long time... Thanks for the input :).

    I think it will take me more years to optimize my keyboard :(.

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    If you like that, why not do the rest as well:
    UNEI for arrows
    JH for PgUp/PgDn
    LY for Home/End
    O; for Back/Del
    number row for F keys
    Q for Esc
    ZXCV for system Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste (not always well implemented)

    I do more, as described elsewhere. But these are the main events for a coder I think.

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    DreymaR said:

    If you like that, why not do the rest as well:
    UNEI for arrows
    JH for PgUp/PgDn
    LY for Home/End
    O; for Back/Del
    number row for F keys
    Q for Esc
    ZXCV for system Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste (not always well implemented)

    I do more, as described elsewhere. But these are the main events for a coder I think.

    Definitely, I will do something like that when I digest the changes that I have already made now. My question is that you can implement this in PKL under window? and How you do it under Ubuntu?

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    Yeah, I'll be getting back to that. I've already posted my PKL one elsewhere but I think it's up for a minor revision soon because I'm planning to lose the left/right wheel scroll as it's hardly implemented and not at all under Linux afaik. But if you're wondering how it's done it's a matter of using the 'Extend key' (I use CapsLock like Farkas does, it's brilliant).

    Under Ubuntu I've wrangled a lot with the beast that is X.Org and I'm starting to come out victorious! It's got the form of a big bag of tricks with options so that people can choose whatever it is I've made they like (well, almost...). With a few modifications they can get even more flexibility but I can't singlehandedly support every possible variant out there! :)

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    DreymaR said:

    Yeah, I'll be getting back to that. I've already posted my PKL one elsewhere but I think it's up for a minor revision soon because I'm planning to lose the left/right wheel scroll as it's hardly implemented and not at all under Linux afaik. But if you're wondering how it's done it's a matter of using the 'Extend key' (I use CapsLock like Farkas does, it's brilliant).

    Under Ubuntu I've wrangled a lot with the beast that is X.Org and I'm starting to come out victorious! It's got the form of a big bag of tricks with options so that people can choose whatever it is I've made they like (well, almost...). With a few modifications they can get even more flexibility but I can't singlehandedly support every possible variant out there! :)


    You mean the this pkl https://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic28447.html ?  Or you have made your own? If so is it a compiled autohotkey script or did you use other programming languages ( C, C++, java, C#.... etc) and where have you posted it?


    Finally, I have question about Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator if you do not mind :). I have built several layouts over QWERTY with MKLC, but this time I wanted to build a layout from scratch and modify the copy paste form the standard QWERTY but it seems that  I can not do it in MKLC, or at least I do not know. I do not want to do registery mapping I just want to know if it is possibly to do it with MKLC or not?

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    I think I've read somewhere it's possible but not through the gui of the program. I'll do a little research and come back to you with what I've found (probably tomorrow).

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    nimbostratue said:

    You mean the this pkl https://www.autohotkey.com/forum/topic28447.html
    [...]
    I have built several layouts over QWERTY with MKLC, but this time I wanted to build a layout from scratch and modify the copy paste form the standard QWERTY but it seems that  I can not do it in MKLC, or at least I do not know.

    1) Yes, PKL by Farkas Máté. My .ini for that (more or less) is here.

    2) Not sure what you mean. By editing and compiling the files yourself you can for instance make the CapsLock key a Backspace or what-have-you using MSKLC - but as Pafkata says, the GUI won't let you do that so it's a question of definition whether you can or cannot do it with the MSKLC tool. Making Cut/Copy/Paste keys is possible, but they won't be supported everywhere. One thing is making a key code, another is whether your OS and programs know what to do with it!

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    DreymaR said:

    Not sure what you mean. By editing and compiling the files yourself you can for instance make the CapsLock key a Backspace or what-have-you using MSKLC - but as Pafkata says, the GUI won't let you do that so it's a question of definition whether you can or cannot do it with the MSKLC tool. Making Cut/Copy/Paste keys is possible, but they won't be supported everywhere. One thing is making a key code, another is whether your OS and programs know what to do with it!


    I mean as pafkata said I want to change the Cut/Copy/paste using the GUI. I want the layout mapping to behave exactly as Dvomak when I hit the Ctrl and not like QWERTY. Besides arguing which mapping is better, mine or QWERTY, I noticed that when I build a layout over QWRTY, which means the layout acts like QWERTY when CTRL is hit, some programs like word 2007 and acrobat revert to using my layout mapping(dvomak) instead of QWERTY when I hit the control although the layout is built over QWERTY and I have to remember the Cut/Copy/paste for both layouts instead of one. There is no problem when I do the mapping using Autohotkey, the problem only happens when I build my layout over QWERTY layout or even from scratch, where the behavior of QWERTY is still maintained when you hit CTRL


    You said I should edit the files to accomplish this! which files, you mean the .klc. Should I open that and edit it. If so, I took a look inside the contents of the file and I will try to play with it for a while and see what I can do
    to swap the shifts, backspace, etc if possible... but I could not see anything that would achieve what I mentioned above.

    Here is the content of the Dvomak.klc that I was working on

    KBD    Dvomak    "Dvomak-En"
    
    COPYRIGHT    "(c) nimbostratue"
    
    COMPANY    "my company"
    
    LOCALENAME    "en-US"
    
    LOCALEID    "00000409"
    
    VERSION    1.0
    
    SHIFTSTATE
    
    0    //Column 4
    1    //Column 5 : Shft
    2    //Column 6 :       Ctrl
    
    LAYOUT        ;an extra '@' at the end is a dead key
    
    //SC    VK_        Cap    0    1    2
    //--    ----        ----    ----    ----    ----
    
    02    1        0    1    1    -1        // DIGIT ONE, DIGIT ONE, <none>
    03    2        0    2    2    -1        // DIGIT TWO, DIGIT TWO, <none>
    04    3        0    3    3    -1        // DIGIT THREE, DIGIT THREE, <none>
    05    4        0    4    4    -1        // DIGIT FOUR, DIGIT FOUR, <none>
    06    5        0    5    -1    -1        // DIGIT FIVE, <none>, <none>
    07    6        0    6    -1    -1        // DIGIT SIX, <none>, <none>
    08    7        0    7    -1    -1        // DIGIT SEVEN, <none>, <none>
    09    8        0    8    -1    -1        // DIGIT EIGHT, <none>, <none>
    0a    9        0    9    -1    -1        // DIGIT NINE, <none>, <none>
    0b    0        0    0    -1    -1        // DIGIT ZERO, <none>, <none>
    0c    OEM_MINUS    0    002d    -1    -1        // HYPHEN-MINUS, <none>, <none>
    0d    OEM_PLUS    0    003d    -1    -1        // EQUALS SIGN, <none>, <none>
    10    Q        0    0027    0027    -1        // APOSTROPHE, APOSTROPHE, <none>
    11    W        0    002c    002c    -1        // COMMA, COMMA, <none>
    12    E        1    u    U    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER U, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U, <none>
    13    R        1    g    G    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER G, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER G, <none>
    14    T        1    k    K    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER K, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K, <none>
    15    Y        1    p    P    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER P, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P, <none>
    16    U        1    f    F    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER F, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F, <none>
    17    I        1    c    C    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER C, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C, <none>
    18    O        1    r    R    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER R, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R, <none>
    19    P        1    l    L    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER L, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L, <none>
    1a    OEM_4        0    005b    005b    -1        // LEFT SQUARE BRACKET, LEFT SQUARE BRACKET, <none>
    1b    OEM_6        0    005d    005d    -1        // RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET, RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET, <none>
    1e    A        1    o    O    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER O, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O, <none>
    1f    S        1    i    I    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER I, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I, <none>
    20    D        1    e    E    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER E, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E, <none>
    21    F        1    a    A    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER A, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, <none>
    22    G        1    y    Y    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER Y, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y, <none>
    23    H        1    d    D    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER D, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D, <none>
    24    J        1    h    H    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER H, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H, <none>
    25    K        1    t    T    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER T, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T, <none>
    26    L        1    n    N    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER N, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N, <none>
    27    OEM_1        1    s    S    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER S, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER S, <none>
    28    OEM_7        1    z    Z    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER Z, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z, <none>
    29    OEM_3        0    0060    0060    -1        // GRAVE ACCENT, GRAVE ACCENT, <none>
    2b    OEM_5        0    005c    005c    -1        // REVERSE SOLIDUS, REVERSE SOLIDUS, <none>
    2c    Z        0    003b    003b    -1        // SEMICOLON, SEMICOLON, <none>
    2d    B        1    x    X    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER X, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER X, <none>
    2e    C        1    j    J    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER J, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J, <none>
    2f    V        0    002e    002e    -1        // FULL STOP, FULL STOP, <none>
    30    X        0    002f    002f    -1        // SOLIDUS, SOLIDUS, <none>
    31    N        1    b    B    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER B, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B, <none>
    32    M        1    m    M    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER M, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER M, <none>
    33    OEM_COMMA    1    w    W    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER W, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER W, <none>
    34    OEM_PERIOD    1    v    V    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER V, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER V, <none>
    35    OEM_2        1    q    Q    -1        // LATIN SMALL LETTER Q, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Q, <none>
    39    SPACE        0    0020    0020    -1        // SPACE, SPACE, <none>
    56    OEM_102    0    005c    005c    -1        // REVERSE SOLIDUS, REVERSE SOLIDUS, <none>
    53    DECIMAL    0    002e    002e    -1        // FULL STOP, FULL STOP, 
    
    
    KEYNAME
    
    01    Esc
    0e    Backspace
    0f    Tab
    1c    Enter
    1d    Ctrl
    2a    Shift
    36    "Right Shift"
    37    "Num *"
    38    Alt
    39    Space
    3a    "Caps Lock"
    3b    F1
    3c    F2
    3d    F3
    3e    F4
    3f    F5
    40    F6
    41    F7
    42    F8
    43    F9
    44    F10
    45    Pause
    46    "Scroll Lock"
    47    "Num 7"
    48    "Num 8"
    49    "Num 9"
    4a    "Num -"
    4b    "Num 4"
    4c    "Num 5"
    4d    "Num 6"
    4e    "Num +"
    4f    "Num 1"
    50    "Num 2"
    51    "Num 3"
    52    "Num 0"
    53    "Num Del"
    54    "Sys Req"
    57    F11
    58    F12
    7c    F13
    7d    F14
    7e    F15
    7f    F16
    80    F17
    81    F18
    82    F19
    83    F20
    84    F21
    85    F22
    86    F23
    87    F24
    
    KEYNAME_EXT
    
    1c    "Num Enter"
    1d    "Right Ctrl"
    35    "Num /"
    37    "Prnt Scrn"
    38    "Right Alt"
    45    "Num Lock"
    46    Break
    47    Home
    48    Up
    49    "Page Up"
    4b    Left
    4d    Right
    4f    End
    50    Down
    51    "Page Down"
    52    Insert
    53    Delete
    54    <00>
    56    Help
    5b    "Left Windows"
    5c    "Right Windows"
    5d    Application
    
    DESCRIPTIONS
    
    0409    Dvomak-En
    LANGUAGENAMES
    
    0409    English (United States)
    ENDKBD
    Last edited by nimbostratue (12-Jan-2012 21:41:30)
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    First, a posting tip: When you post your files and suchlike, use square bracket tags (BBCode) with 'code' and '/code' around it! Looks nice, and can be scrolled and copied easily. :)

    I think I see your problem. It's not about Copy/Paste/etc (my previous answer was for making actual Copy/Paste/etc KEYS which do exist but are poorly supported so they're not all that great). It's about VKEYs. That means Virtual Key codes and I see that you haven't remapped yours when using MSKLC. It's like this, abouts:
    1) The keyboard sends a scan code to the computer;
    2) then that's translated to a virtual scan code (which is what you can remap with the "registry method";
    3a) then that scan code (the first column in the main part of the .klc file) is linked to a virtual key code (which is what your Copy/Paste hotkeys usually uses!) and
    3b) at the same time an input event may be created sending a glyph to the input stream depending on the current modifier state (shift, ctrl, lvl3/altgr, SCaps if defined...).
    4) In most cases, only the Shift and AltGr states are used for glyph events although there are some exceptions for Ctrl in some layouts (you don't want to abuse that as Ctrl combos are better used for actual control events as you're familiar with - such as Copy/Paste/etc you know...).

    This you can fix in the GUI! If you want a key to send, say, the letter X and you also want the key to work with Ctrl-X for Cut then you need to set the VK_ for that key to X and not just the glyphs it produces! You'll find out how, it's there in the GUI for the keys.

    Or you could actually edit the .klc directly, replacing the VK_ keys. Then when you open the file in MSKLC it'll work (unless you did it wrong, hehe). Whatever is best for you.

    Caveat: Some silly programs will not use the VKEY code as they're supposed to, but sniff for scan codes directly. Then they'll be using the "QWERTY" hotkeys no matter what unless you registry remap. Silly, silly programs - that's bad form but it has been seen.

    Last edited by DreymaR (12-Jan-2012 21:27:49)

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    DreymaR said:

    First, a posting tip: When you post your files and suchlike, use square bracket tags (BBCode) with 'code' and '/code' around it! Looks nice, and can be scrolled and copied easily. :)

    I think I see your problem. It's not about Copy/Paste/etc (my previous answer was for making actual Copy/Paste/etc KEYS which do exist but are poorly supported so they're not all that great). It's about VKEYs. That means Virtual Key codes and I see that you haven't remapped yours when using MSKLC. It's like this, abouts:
    1) The keyboard sends a scan code to the computer;
    2) then that's translated to a virtual scan code (which is what you can remap with the "registry method";
    3a) then that scan code (the first column in the main part of the .klc file) is linked to a virtual key code (which is what your Copy/Paste hotkeys usually uses!) and
    3b) at the same time an input event may be created sending a glyph to the input stream depending on the current modifier state (shift, ctrl, lvl3/altgr, SCaps if defined...).
    4) In most cases, only the Shift and AltGr states are used for glyph events although there are some exceptions for Ctrl in some layouts (you don't want to abuse that as Ctrl combos are better used for actual control events as you're familiar with - such as Copy/Paste/etc you know...).

    This you can fix in the GUI! If you want a key to send, say, the letter X and you also want the key to work with Ctrl-X for Cut then you need to set the VK_ for that key to X and not just the glyphs it produces! You'll find out how, it's there in the GUI for the keys.

    Or you could actually edit the .klc directly, replacing the VK_ keys. Then when you open the file in MSKLC it'll work (unless you did it wrong, hehe). Whatever is best for you.

    Caveat: Some silly programs will not use the VKEY code as they're supposed to, but sniff for scan codes directly. Then they'll be using the "QWERTY" hotkeys no matter what unless you registry remap. Silly, silly programs - that's bad form but it has been seen.

    Thanks for the tip, I usually do it on autohotkey but not here because I thought it does not work and  I am lazy to go to the BBCode link to see if it works. On Autohotekey forum, however, the BBCodes are just below the typing area :), so I can remember them quickly


    Regarding the VK_, that is exactly what I am asking about. I have already done that for the X (cut), as shown and described in the figure below, but when I go to project -> test your keyboard layout  to test my layout, it does not cut, and only the X in the old QWERTY position works. Now, I am thinking that maybe I have to install the layout for this to work or maybe I have done something wrong? (refer to the figure below to decide).

    When One indulge further into layouts things start to become complicated OS problems, programs that does not work as intended dam it :). Really this field is still a miss and needs a lot of improvements.

    layoutcu.jpg

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    I solved the problem by editing the VK_ keys in the source file and I was able to map backspace to [ in the file also, but I guess I have to do the other modifiers mapping through the registry using keytweaks or sharpkeys. I have actually learned a lot the last two days about scan codes. I used to think that there is only one set but it turned out that there are actually three :).

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    Glad it worked! Yeah, now that I think about it I think I had to edit the .klc manually to get the VK_ codes right too. In theory you shouldn't mess with the SC part of the MSKLC GUI.

    There are at least 3 sets of scan codes, true. I learnt a lot when I started to hang on the GeekHack forums! There's the internal scan codes in the keyboard that the computer never see. Then the keyboard controller send keypress codes to the computer which has another chip that translates them to computer scan codes I think (but I'm unclear on this point!). These are then as I said mapped to the virtual scan codes. Those are different for different OS I believe. The virtual key codes are an attempt to use something more human-readable than those numbers but they may cause trouble for us layout aficionados...

    I rather like the Linux way of making virtual key codes. There you use the default position of the key instead of the name of its QWERTY function! So instead of calling the key next to Tab 'Q' you'd call it <AD01> because it's in the Alphabet block, row D, position 01. I like that. Of course, then I spoil it all by remapping to a Wide layout so that key <AD05> is followed by <AD11> then <AD06>. :D

    Last edited by DreymaR (13-Jan-2012 18:20:25)

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    Indeed, you should not mess with scan codes in the GUI and the .klc file. The scan codes only denote the keys or ( the hardware) and if you want to change which character is assigned to key you just change the the pressed state and shift state in column 0 and 1 and the VK_ (for ctrl+character to work properly). I found the following links very helpful and almost comprehensive on this subject.http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/compint.htm

    https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes.html
    http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/compint.htm
    http://www.siongboon.com/projects/2007- … /index.htm
    http://www.barcodeman.com/altek/mule/scandoc.php


    Now, I have to do the mapping in ubunto, and I have to search on that too :8.

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    Gosh, that last post almost looks like one of the spams that we see around the forum every now and then. I mean with the four links at the end :P
    Good read, thanks.

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    pafkata90 said:

    Gosh, that last post almost looks like one of the spams that we see around the forum every now and then. I mean with the four links at the end :P
    Good read, thanks.

    Lucky me the post was not flagged as spam :). You are Welcome and enjoy the reading
    BTW, Congratulation for your new typing record but remember to take care of your wrists (yoga) and not to overuse them.

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    • From: Sofia, Bulgaria
    • Registered: 05-Mar-2011
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    Thanks nimbo. I haven't had any serious problems with my wrists, fortunately, and I'm looking after them. It's a bit painful for my pinkies sometimes if I hadn't typed much in a couple days and start a longer session but with a few breaks the pain is gone and doesn't come back.

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