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  • Four years hands on with an alternative layout (Dvorak)

    Four years hands on with an alternative layout (Dvorak)

    • Started by pinkyache
    • 11 Replies:
    • Reputation: 7
    • Registered: 21-Apr-2010
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    It has been four years since I began touch typing with an alternative keyboard layout.

    About six years or so back I had a period of pain in my neck that made using a computer practically impossible.  That was the catalyst that moved me to find ways to help mitigate the stress.  I decided to learn how to touch type.  And while I was at it, chose to do so with an alternative keyboard layout.  I picked the Dvorak layout.

    I chose Dvorak buying into the idea that a more modern layout would be more efficient than Qwerty.  I'd heard about Colemak but decided against it.  Dvorak support was/is baked into many gadgets, computers and operating systems whereas Colemak requires more configuration.  Shortly after starting out with Dvorak I discovered there are many other alternative layouts. 

    To begin with touch typing was very slow going.  I'd never measured my previous typing speed, although I considered myself a fast half-blind hunt and pecker.  The reduction in speed is very debilitating and frustrating.  Memorising the keyboard layout was the easy part, I had the actual layout down in a day or two.  Despite the speed loss and initial typos, getting started was straight forward.  Building up speed however, took time.  When I reached about 30WPM typing began to feel easier.  Early forum posts capture my annoyance with slow typing.  At the time I would have been content with a steady 40WPM (I just wanted to be able to type easily and comfortably).

    My fingers struggled with the transition to touch typing from my hunt and peck method.  My hands and fingers felt more constrained.  My right pinky ached.  I'd barely ever used that digit to type previously.  I frequently over practised and that put added strain and stress on my hands and fingers.  I was used to having pains and stress in my upper body, but I'd never felt them in my hands, wrists or fingers.

    At some point motor memory took over.  Touch typing began to feel normal.  I didn't need to think about where I was putting my fingers.  You think a word and it errupts on the page.  That's a great moment.

    Building up speed for me was a gradual process.  You can practice for a good month with only a small increase in WPM.  Speed gains plateau with time.  I now type around 80WPM to 100WPM according to typing tests (they are probably peaks).

    Being able to touch type is great.  When I used to hunt and peck, emails could take a long time, and feel frustrating.  I'd sigh when I had to type out more than a few words.  Entering text commands on a computer could be a pain, it was tedious.  I relied a lot on copying and pasting, and cutting corners.  Not being able to get your thoughts down quickly can be quite stifling.  I personally think this barrier to text entry is really detrimental.

    My initial goal was to be able to type at the computer with ease, with less less or no strains an stresses.  I haven't reached that.  I still suffer from both neck and shoulder pain.  My fingers can fatigue and stiffen up.  Normally a result of over typing or from cold surroundings.  My standard keyboard or my approach might be flawed.  Perhaps it is too late to right previous wrongs of the past.  Having said that, I now type more than I ever have in the past, and touch typing affords me not to hunch as much as I may have in the past, so in many ways I feel better.

    To try and relieve myself further:  I have tried mechanical keyboards, lessening my key strike impact and experimented with different work station setups (standing desks etc).  Some days for me, touch typing on a standard keyboard can still feel trying.

    Rather annoyingly I'm not in a position to compare touch typing between alternative layouts.  As I never could touch type under Qwerty.  I can't comment as to whether Dvorak is more comfortable or not.  I have discovered that alternative layout support is quite flimsy across operating systems, software and devices.  Even for a popular alternative such as Dvorak.

    Layout switching can involve digging into esoteric control panels, tabs and menus.  Sometimes this is far from intuitive.   Selecting and flipping between layouts should be much, much easier.  My layout switcher in Xfce (Debian/Linux) sometimes just craps out.  The login screen (GDM3/Debian/Linux), no longer presents keyboard layout options.   That could mean that you have to type in your password under one layout, and when you log in be in another.  Some games are hard coded to Qwerty, which means letters aren't where I expect them to be.

    When you share a computer, you want to be able to switch layouts without irritating the other people that you share with.  Keyboard layouts feel like an afterthought by user interface designers.

    I'm still looking for insights and techniques that can help me improve my typing.   It is the reason I hang around the Colemak forums like a bad smell.  I feel a little like an imposter.  Thanks for putting up with me.

    At times out of desperation, I think that perhaps Dvorak is a problem and I consider switching layout.  I blame the standard keyboard for many of my woes.  I think they are unweildy, and they are designed around a desing from the past - I don't think for the right reasons either.

    Learning to touch type took longer and was more difficult than I imagined.  However for me it is most likely a net gain as I spend so much time at the computer. (Too much time,  I must work on that.)  When I started to learn how to touch type I was a little worried (and at the same time hopeful), that the standard keyboard would become obsolete, and be surpassed by new input methods.  The tablet computer is replacing the desktop and laptop for many.  Touchscreen input doesn't particularly wow me in s present form.  Voice recognition is getting better.  Keyboards are not bowing out just yet.

    For the future, I might concentrate on fingering technique.  Or if I have the time and inclination try and write some software that helps with touch typing or text input.  I may even consider getting yet another keyboard in the vague hope that it will help (I have two mechanicals already, that I'm not that enamoured with).

    Last edited by pinkyache (28-May-2014 10:07:21)

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    Physicians deafen our ears with the Honorificabilitudinitatibus of their heavenly Panacaea, their sovereign Guiacum.

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    Telekinesis would be next for you. While waiting for it to happen, a personal secretary can be very handy :-)

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    There's only so much a layout can do. There are fundamental problems with the standard keyboard layout. I've tried about four different keyboards. I tried different mechanical switches and even Topre switches. Currently I'm on a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard and--despite the lackluster review on Anandtech--it is the best keyboard yet.

    This keyboard is also my first with Brown mechanical switches, and these are the best switches yet. So that helps. Topre is nice, but my fingers still hurt with those switches. Reds are the softness I liked best, but I always bottomed out. That hurt because it was like smacking my fingers into the bottom of the keyboard. Brown switches provide the same softness, but a bump that lets me know when I can stop pressing, so I don't bottom out as much.

    I'm still undecided as to the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard's layout. The smartest thing they did was make it fully programmable, which is why it's the best keyboard I've used. Whenever I feel a key would be better somewhere else, I move it! I've moved a few keys already.

    Having things like Enter and Backspace in the center row is still up for debate. Having Backspace in the center solves the problem Colemak tries to solve, but does it with just one Backspace key. The drawback is that it's easier to accidentally hit keys in the center row.

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    Yes.  Not sure though whether hard is necessarily bad.  A quick strike might be preferable to a slow hold and depress.  I felt it more in the beginning.  The faster I type it almost feels better.  Or rather I have better control over the velocity of my fingers at speed.  In the past I've prefered a gentle touch, which felt easier with the hunt and peck.  But gentle is too hard on some keyboards.  It's almost the vertical clout on the right hand that triggers pain in the shoulder.  It's quite hard to describe.  I rarely get it on the left hand side, which sometimes makes me wonder if it's pinky related.  But to be honest I had the pains in a similar place in the past, so it's something that's aggrevating it.  Oh well.  Will keep varying my technique until I find something that resonates well with me.

    Last edited by pinkyache (01-May-2014 20:20:36)

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    • From: Italy
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    I also would focus on posture as well. I am suffering pain to neck and wrists too and my physiatrist told me it's all about posture. I am learning to touch type properly (the Colemak way) and found out it helps a lot. But for sure I also had an incorrect posture and I am trying to fix that as well. If you didn't already, try to take a deeper look into that matter as well.

    Last edited by rebus (02-May-2014 10:25:49)
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    Thanks for the insights! Regarding the smell, we eventually got used to it so it's okay now. ;)

    People talk about switches a lot. I use mechanical switches on my main keyboard but in fact I feel that it's gravy for me at least. They're nice to type on and produce a delightful sound and a feeling of geeky nostalgia. Yup. A Kinesis would probably be a lot more ergonomical, but I don't want to get that.

    Things like the WideAngle mod might actually help if you're using a standard-type keyboard. If the Wide mods are too much, then just the Angle mod is a possibility. These can be used with Dvorak, but you'd probably have to make some definition files yourself unless someone have them around. Using my XKB/Linux files, you should be able to use any of the Wide/Angle mods with Dvorak directly as they're implemented as keyboard models not layouts.

    I also swear to the Extend mappings as you well know. To me, they're as important as Colemak itself. I guess it does depend on whether you can hit a modifier key (usually Caps) easily with other keys, but for me it feels very comfy and ergonomical and lets me edit and navigate much better with the keyboard which also reduces rodent dependency.

    But as Rebus says, posture should be maybe the most important thing of all. A good work position, or rather several because variation is also important. And don't type in those freezing rooms without wrist warmers at least, you hear me?

    Last edited by DreymaR (02-May-2014 10:16:22)

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    The only thing I've seen touchscreen-wise that might help you would be the swipe inputs. Otherwise touchscreen is a losing proposition.

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    My Mum has just bought an Android tablet after swearing blind she had no interest or want for a computer.   Although she is struggling a little, I have  already receieved an email.  I think she would have stuggled way more with a laptop.  So I would hardly say that a touchscreen is a losing proposition.

    I was interested in MessagEase, but seeing it used, I'm now not so sure.  I'm not ruling out another touch based input method though.  Perhaps one that is a departure from the old typewriter analogy.

    Last edited by pinkyache (28-May-2014 10:17:46)

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    If you do any serious amount of typing, a touch screen is pointless as a keyboard.

    You get ZERO finger travel if you try to treat it like a touch typist keyboard, which is very harsh to say the least.  Also, if trying to use it as a regular keyboard, you'll need something that can handle 3-10 touch points at a time etc.  As someone who's worked in the gambling industry for over a decade, I'll just note that my personal experience with touch screens makes them completely useless for high speed 'typing'.

    The "swipe input" is a possibility though. Or maybe it's called "swype".  Basically, you just kinda drag your finger around the virtual keyboard and based on where you stop / change directions, it guesses what you meant.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUoWUhcRlE#t=157

    In a way, this could almost be considered a 'chorded' keyboard in a way then, maybe. I dunno.

    ------------

    As far as your original post and some thoughts to ask yourself.  Do note that I don't consider to be a 'correct' answer to many of these questions, but just things to think about fiddling with.

    Body position
    * elbows height
    * elbows position relative to sides of body
    * wrist position to the keyboard (how far forward/behind home row)
    * curve of the wrist to the hand (--\ or --| etc)
    * angle of fingers to the keys / how do you actuate the keys ?
    * feet position (flat, or ?)
    * shoulder position height (not shrugging shoulders)
    * shoulder position to keyboard (do you need to be at an angle or square?)
    * neck position / height of monitor
    * height of keyboard
    * leaning forward / backward ?
    * are you upside down right now  :D ?

    Would a MS Natural keyboard benefit you ?  I HATE them personally (loathe, rage, disdain, etc).

    Do you make use of a decent quality wrist rest ? Some folks like them, some folks hate them.

    Maybe instead of a wrist rest, do you need to rest your elbows on something ?

    How much movement is there in your wrists as you type.
    * flexing left to right
    * flexing up and down
    * how much do your elbows flex as you type
    * how much do your shoulders move as you type

    Is there something such as the backspace key that you hit frequently that causes you to flex / move differently ?

    Keyboard / mouse transition a problem ?

    Does your chair suck ?  Is it more of the source of the problem than typing itself ?

    Do you constantly hold any given set of muscles stiff while typing ? Fingers? Arms ? Back ? Eyes ? Genitalia ?

    Do you take a break every 30 or 60min ? Something to where you move around at least a little bit ?  I suppose there are those timer things for RSI, I can't recall if you've mentioned using them or not.

    Is Ibuprofen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibuprofen ) available in your country and does it help or not ?

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    I take ibuprofen frequently, or rather whenever the shoulder gets too much.  I have worked on my posture.  Pretty much all of your list.  My chair is quite crap, I'll admit that much.  I should break more often.  I try not to hold myself stiff.  But depends how stressed/relaxed I am.

    I think I'll try a new chair.  Lying down is about as comfortable as it gets with the furniture in this house.  But it has been a while since I've managed to type in that position.

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    There are some stupidly expensive 'ergonomic' keyboards out there.  I've been avoiding suggesting those.  The MS Natural being closest I'd mention only because they're somewhat common.

    As an example of touchscreen touch typing, try just typing on your desk with no keyboard.  And do it for say a minute.  Actually grab a screen full of text and pretend to touch type it out on your desk.  You prolly won't enjoy the experience.

    I believe what I've heard from friends with shoulder pain, as well as research on the web - that a decent quality wrist rest solves problems for shoulder pain while typing.

    Sadly, there are pictures missing, but:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140107152 … your-pain/

    Yes, Gotta use the Way Back Machine to access the page... but it has some interesting points to ponder.

    Does have some youtube video availables:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA

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    davkol said:

    Oh, I'm so glad that "ergonomic keyboards are bad FUD" is dead.

    Some of them are tools of the devil (see: MS Natural keyboards).  But, I'll admit that those are either love or hate.  I ran screaming towards the 'hate' end of the bar and jumped off cursing all the way down.  God I hate the 'natural' keyboards with a passion.  There are folks they work really well for though, so ... my opinion isn't fact on the matter :D

    Some of the better designs, such as ergodox or the more 'serious' natural keyboards that aren't just a PITA split are good IMHO though.

    I think for any touch typist, the first upgrade should be a mechanical keyboard <3.  Having just picked up one myself, am falling back in love with keyboards <3.

    Last edited by unfy (03-May-2014 16:12:12)
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