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Long trem user of QWERTY to colemak

  • Started by cartman-2000
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I've been using QWERTY as a non-touch typist for around 17 years, and managed to get to around 25-35 WPM with it, but have experienced certain amounts of wrist pain/finger numbness from time to time. Started to use colemak a few days ago while also starting to learn how to touch type. I did a key cap switch on my keyboard to the layout, so in case someone else needed to use the computer they could. For learning the layout I used the AHK on-screen keyboard for the first couple days, and have been going without it since(while only glancing down from time to time to look at the number keys which can be hard to reach for accurately.). I'm not really looking to get to an über speed at it, but would like to get up to at least 40 WPM at it.

At first I only got like 8-10 WPM(89% accuracy.) with it, currently getting around 14-18 WPM(92-94% accuracy.) with it after 5 days of typing on it, and at a few hours a day(mostly casual typing.). I do find myself hitting the c key with my index finger and not the proper middle finger(Much easier to reach with the index.), and find myself running into the relatively common ct bigram doing that though(act, fact, active, etc.).

For the speed tests I've been using Amphetype and 10fastfingers(I prefer Amphetype over the other, I do a bit better when I don't fell pressured by a time limit.).

As for adapting to the layout, I do notice the load on the right pinky, as not being a touch typer before and a gamer, my left pinky is a bit stronger than my right, and easier to control. Like for O letter typos, I sometimes will drop an O out of a word or hit I with the ring finger instead by accident. I have like 4 times the number of errors on the O key than I do on the A key, 92% versus 98% accuracy.

Edit: Top speed so far for today is 19.9 WPM(93.8% accuracy.).

Last edited by cartman-2000 (03-Aug-2014 00:01:14)
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cartman-2000 said:

I do find myself hittingthe c key with my index finger and not the proper middle finger(Much easier to reach with the index.), and find myself running into the relatively common ct bigrm doing that though(act, fact, active, etc.).

ct/tc isn't all that common (0.26%), while that choice of fingering avoids cs/sc (0.11%).

Though perhaps not worth changing back now, in general I'd suspect it's easier to just leave the key labels as QWERTY and have other users switch the layout back. That would also leave you with QWERTY legends should you ever need them for some reason.

Good luck with your switch!

Last edited by lalop (03-Aug-2014 14:34:29)
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Hey Cartman, hang in there.  The first time I switched keyboard layouts, it was really slow going for awhile.  You'll get there before you know it as long as you keep practicing.

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  • From: Viken, Norway
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To hit the C key with the middle finger, I'd suggest the Angle ergo mod (preferably with an ISO keyboard).

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Unfortunately I only have standard US keyboards without the extra key by the z key.

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Actually, I've personally found that in time the hand learns to use either the index or the middle finger for c to make depending on the bigraph. Statiscally speaking though, it's better to always press it with the middle finger than always pressing it with the index finger.

Posted without the aid of a rodent.

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Using the proper finger to type those keys, I find that I commonly hit right on the very edge of the key, almost in between the keys, it can cause the 2 key typo when I do that(hitting both at the same time.). I would probably find one if those vertical column keys keyboard a lot better, but being on a bit of a budget, it would be hard to afford a very expensive one. That ErgoDox looks rather interesting, but expensive.

For accuracy, I have to practice the home row keys some more, I find that I get out of order/switch the RS, TD, HN, EI, and IO keys in most typos("I" has the worst accuracy on the home row at ~85%, A at 98% accuracy.), these ones have amongst the highest percentage of mistypes in Amphetype. Well I am left handed, might take a little longer to build accuracy in my right hand compared to my left.

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I've been looking at the type matrix keyboards recently. I tend to like the scissor key type keys for the dome type keyboards, the lower key travel(even though these tend to be easier to break than the other types.). Most of the full travel ones I've had have had problems with sticking keys after a year or two.

The grid style keyboards can be a bit hard to find on your usual US computer store website, they only have the Kinesis Advantage one on Newegg(of the grid type ones that aren't mini keyboards.), the site I usually buy electronic stuff off of.

I don't have any experience using the mechanical keyboards before, never owned/used one before.

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lalop said:

Though perhaps not worth changing back now, in general I'd suspect it's easier to just leave the key labels as QWERTY and have other users switch the layout back. That would also leave you with QWERTY legends should you ever need them for some reason.

If I ever needed to use QWERTY, I do have an old Logitech wave keyboard, I generally have hooked up to my PC, that I could use. Although the keys on that one stick too much to be able to touch type very well on it.


Best I've done so far in the typing tests is 21.6 WPM at 95.8% accuracy, average is more like around 18-19 WPM.

Last edited by cartman-2000 (04-Aug-2014 22:20:14)
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Mech keyboards are so much better than normal keyboards, especially with typists. If you are skeptical, pls get a cheap one (less than 100USD). I suggest brown switch for a starter.

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I switched a few months ago and like you, also learned to touch type at the same time. I had extremely slow speeds initially as well. Keep going though, the rewards will come!

I still hit C with my index finger. But I don't think it's that big a deal. Longer term I'd probably be looking at getting a non-staggered keyboard also. I think it would help with a lot of typing errors, esp with regard to the bottom row.

I think having keys Colemak-labelled is nice. Initially I didn't bother, but then decided to get some stickers. I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard while you type, but I reckon having the keys correctly labelled helps with the learning process.

Last edited by stevep99 (05-Aug-2014 11:43:28)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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Well using the C with the index finger would matter when you switch to a grid style layout, it would force you to use you middle finger as the bottom row would be moved left half a key to align with the middle row, so you would be forced to relearn those keys.

There are some full words that I have learned to type out pretty well so far(Without really thinking about typing out the individual keys or word parts), but for a lot of the longer words I'm still a bit slow at, having to type them out parts at a time, I'm also a little slow at using the shift key properly.

For the key swap, it probably only matters if you ever have anyone else use your computer, and don't really feel like switching around the layouts in the OS when someone else wants to use it(Or just a little bit evil.). Pretty much the only time I glance down is to look for home keys hand placement when I'm initially placing my hands to type, even though I made my home index keys textured(Used some tape >.>) so I can feel them, it still can be hard to feel exactly where they are. Using stickers for mine might look a little weird as it's one of those illuminated keyboards.

Last edited by cartman-2000 (05-Aug-2014 20:20:58)
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Stickers are advised not to use here. When you don't use stickers, you will eventually get rid of the bad habit of looking at the keyboard while typing.

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Some people are mentioning non-staggered layouts, but in general, I would carefully consider whether or not any given layout seems an significant improvement to one's current typing habits. 

For example, on my current staggered layout I [presumably; I don't actually remember devising this] use the (Ring, Middle, Index) -> (Z, X, C) fingering because those keys are where my respective fingers land when I curl them and/or pull my arm back just a little.  I suspect that's why many people hit C with their index finger (the other two being uncommon enough it might not make a difference/be noticed).

In particular, my fingers don't seem to naturally go "straight down", but rather "slant left-downwards" in the case of my left hand, "slant right-downwards" in the case of my right.  Because of this, I doubt that a non-staggered layout would be an improvement for me - it could even make my situation worse, getting rid of the right-hand slant of the stagger and the left-hand slant of my alternative fingering - unless:

  1. The keyboard is, or can be, angled in such slants (e.g. ergodox), and/or

  2. The keyboard is wide enough to make my arms/wrists change their slant entirely (kinesis/maltron?).

The known cost of my nonstandard fingering is approximately 0.15% extra same-finger (unless you use DreymaR's Angle Mod, which preserves which fingers hit which key).  I think it's worth it, but opinions may vary.

DreymaR himself seems to arrive at a similar conclusion, though from a slightly different angle:

DreymaR said:

I don't think that a matrix is a good idea [in certain cases]. The wrists shouldn't have to twist to type and unless the parts of the matrix are mounted on separate boards with spacing and an angle between them that's what will happen with a matrix design. The row stagger of normal keyboards is okay as it is for the right hand, but it should've been reversed for the left hand!

Disclaimers:

  1. I'm not an expert in any sense.

  2. None of this is advice, only my observations about my personal case.  Others will have to check for their own cases.

  3. In particular, I think a grid layout may well be an improvement for the left-hand, standard touchtyping technique; it's mainly my left-hand alternative fingering that seems to work OK with the stagger.

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I agree mostly with @dreymar on this one.

The thing I mostly hate is that the keyboard isn't split.  A laptop doesn't afford you room, but on a desktop the keyboard could easily be split into two.  I'd like the back corners of each side to be on a ball hinge, a little curve on the board itself.

My fingers are quite bent.  More so now that I touch type, but the natural alignment was a wee bit bent.  If I curl the middle finger it tends a little to the left.  The right stagger doesn't feel totally aweful but it still feels somewhat cramped (to me).

A totally split keyboard would allow much more freedom for both arm and hand placement.   I'd be much happier (I think) adopting the hand shake posture (TIE Fighter style, but properly split).  Heck you could even put a trackball under each palm...

Last edited by pinkyache (06-Aug-2014 14:50:46)

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Perhaps there is an issue of semantics. By "non-staggered keyboard" I meant one that doesn't conform to the usual staggered design. That would include designs that are basically in columns, be they in two halves or a single unit in a slightly angled V shape. Maybe "non-traditional" would have been a better description. But still, in the event I get such a keyboard, I would address my "incorrect" C technique at that point.

Regarding stickers, even if they are "not advised" I think for a non-touch typist learning Colemak, they may help a little. When I started learning I didn't want to see a qwerty keyboard in case it gave rise to some form of dissonance in my mind!

Last edited by stevep99 (06-Aug-2014 15:47:20)

Using Colemak-DH with Seniply.

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i type on a non-staggered, columnar, matrix (all names for the same thing) keyboard: truly ergonomic keyboard. it's the best keyboard i've typed on and i'm greatly pleased with it. but i wouldn't recommend it in general because it takes some getting used to. by far the best feature isn't the layout. it's that it's fully programmable. so if i don't like a key somewhere, i can just move it. it's also a my first brown switch keyboard, and i like brown the best (better than red, black, or blue).

i learned colemak at the same time i got used to this keyboard, and i think that made getting used to this keyboard easier. i mean, i was learning a new layout anyway, so everything seemed new

Last edited by youBane (06-Aug-2014 17:23:42)
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Davkol is right. If you're interested in the terminology, see this:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Staggering

In theory, a 'non-staggered columnar' keyboard would be a matrix keyboard. But the terms aren't used like that in practice.

Last edited by DreymaR (06-Aug-2014 18:17:38)

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A little update. Highest speed so far in Amphetype is at 24.9 WPM and 95.8% accuracy, average is probably around like 19-23 WPM. For casual typing errors I tend to go back and retype the words I get wrong instead of fixing the errors in it, to try to get better muscle memory for typing the word out correctly.

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mid twenties in a month is pretty good going

as has been mentioned - the fact that you are learning to touch type at the same time makes it more than twice as difficult to learn colemak

i know - i was in exactly the same boat about a year or so ago, although i had a slight advantage in as much as i had spent the previous 6 months learning to touch type qwerty, in fact it was that 6 months that managed to convince me how useless qwerty was hence the switch to colemak

keep at it - i'm up to about the mid 60's now on a good day with an easy text..

the one tip i would give is to try and concentrate on accuracy rather than speed - i got it the other way round and it did me no favours at all

aim for an accuracy of 98% or more no matter how slow it makes you, perversely i believe this will make you quicker faster

(this is the reason why accuracies in typeracer above 98% come up green and anything below comes up red)

Last edited by bph (08-Aug-2014 09:52:02)
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Well I did get one last night at 27.9 WPM and 98.1% accuracy, but it would probably take a couple more days at least to get that or over consistently. It kind of depends on how noisy the environment I'm in is, as I have ADD my speed and accuracy can both suffer quite a bit in a noisy environment. That one test was done late at night when it was very very quiet. The accuracy can be pretty bad if I have a TV running in the background for instance.

Last edited by cartman-2000 (08-Aug-2014 17:50:22)
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I think that I am starting to, or getting close to, hit the point where I'm going from having quick short term gains, to the slower long term gains. Currently at roughly 25-30 WPM. I've gained roughly 1-2 wpm/day since I started, but haven't really gained much of anything over the past couple days, maybe .5wpm/day.

I've also been trying to retrain myself to hit z,x,c with the proper fingers, with hitting c with my index finger made me quite inaccurate at hitting the v key, usually hit c or b instead. This change has made some words containing c and s in them a bit awkward to type, even more so if it also has a and r in it too, like the word sarcastic, or a ch digraph(Moving the c to my middle finger is also having the effect of me trying to hit the h key with my middle finger too, so quite often it comes out as cn or ce if I have a typo on that.).

I'm also using the review feature in the Amphetype, that can output some diabolical stuff as it gives you the words you mistyped or did the worst on.

Last edited by cartman-2000 (11-Aug-2014 01:46:48)
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Current average, 29-33 wpm in Amphetype. Looks like I was right bit with me showing down a little in the progress. I find some digraphs a little hard to do well, the ye one is a little hard to do as pulling my ring finger up to the "y" key also pulls my middle finger up too which makes hitting the "e" key a little bit harder, like to type out the word yellow, my middle finger is on the top edge of the "e" key when typing that word.

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As an old QWERTY user as well I found a few of these key combinations a bit awkward at the start too. I can only assure you that this will get easier over time. When I come up against them I fire up wordpad and just type them slowly out - ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye ye.

This builds the muscle memory up and it will quickly become something you forgot was ever an issue in the first place.

I found it very useful to type out the home keys and then practice the keys above as well to get used to their new positions. Only thing to worry about at this point is accuracy. The speed will start to flow once your mind knows where everything is.

Keep up the good work!

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I pretty much know where everything is on this layout, but I still can get one off typos when typing stuff out when I'm switching between my hands, like "this" can sometimes come out as "thir", or "there" can come out as "these".

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