• You are not logged in.
  • Index
  • General
  • Convince me this is worth learning (for a fast QWERTY typist)

    Convince me this is worth learning (for a fast QWERTY typist)

    • Started by Jazzed
    • 11 Replies:
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 11-Jun-2007
    • Posts: 3

    I've been interested in DVORAK for some time but but haven't attempted a switch yet for a few reasons. There was the minor zxcv issue, and the brackets relocation for coding work, but a big reason is that I don't want to risk losing my QWERTY skills. I stumbled here today, and found that Colemak solves the first two cons of DVORAK.

    Thing is, my mother taught me to touch type when I was five, so QWERTY is heavily ingrained. I'm pretty sure I'm much faster than average: I can type at 110-130 WPM with reasonable accuracy; I've clocked myself approaching 150 when typing a set of familiar text.

    I think it's unrealistic to expect any gains in speed, but I'm interested in making typing physically healthier and perhaps improving accuracy a bit.


    Is it actually worth switching with my current typing speeds for the slight stress-reduction? Has anyone who was already a proificient QWERTY touch-typest noticed any loss of that skill? I haven't had any issues pain thus far, I'm just being worried about any future injuries negatively impacting other uses of my hands (specifically piano).


    Thanks.

    edit: Erg, the title of this thread sounds very much like a command. Sorry about that if it comes off as a bit rude, I can't edit it now.

    Last edited by Jazzed (11-Jun-2007 07:41:36)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 210
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    Hmmm... this is the Colemak forum so of course we will praise it and tell you that you had better get started at once!  :)

    But in truth, if you're mainly worried about your speed and it's that good now then I'm not sure. And if you haven't had any issues yet with that speed then chances are you'll be fine. I still recommend switching to Colemak of course, but that's because I like typing in it and it's so nice and it's cool and a bunch of other reasons that may not apply to you. Who knows, you'd probably get better ergonomy but maybe not enough to matter for you, and you might get just a little more speed but it's certainly no given for you. If you're not motivated for any other reasons than a possibly better ergonomy then I'm not going to try and convert you.

    On the other hand, consider how much you type and for how many years you'll likely be typing. How many hours are you going to be spending typing all in all, most likely? Lots. So any small improvement to that would probably be worth making.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 2
    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
    • Posts: 358

    I think it would be really hard to say.  If you started at 5 with touch typing QWERTY, that means not only has your cerebellum and motor cortex probably retained extra neurons during growth and development, but the network of synapses are probably like giant tree trunks.  You hands are physically probably well adapted too and if you have never experienced any pain you probably practice good position and posture just like at your piano. I assume you are older than 16 and you brain is  mature. That's a lot to ask any layout to match no matter how much better it may be. Unless you are experiencing fatigue or soreness or pain, you are not likely to be motivated enough to deal with the transition period no matter how much shorter it might be for you than learning something much more different like Dvorak.  The other possible motivation depends on what you call reasonable accuracy at +110 WPM.

    If you spend many hours typing each day, the transition is likely to create a great deal of frustration and you might be better off waiting for a vacation or slow period of at least a week or two to try it.   

    For a QWERTY athlete such as yourself, it's likely that you may not experience physical issues until your 40's or later.  If that's far off you may be better off just finding things to support your hands and better ergonomic keyboards, etc.

    On the other hand, there have been some fast QWERTY typists on here that have reported some pretty phenomenal turnarounds in speed with learning Colemak.  They were not typing quite as fast as you to begin with though.  It does indicate some ancedotal evidence that the same neural networks in your brain for QWERTY are capable to fairly rapid adaptation even in a mature brain to map to something like Colemak that is designed to minimize the changes needed while creating more optimal movement.   That's supported by more recent research that indicates the adult brain is much more adaptable than was once thought a couple of decades ago.  They also do see some drop off in their QWERTY perfomance - though it is not clear whether is temporarily due to learning interference or simply reduced usage and practice.  What is less clear is that whether by having something much closer to QWERTY than Dvorak, you might not be making a tradeoff between easier transition and greater degradation of your prior skill.  It could be that as far as your motor cortex is concerned there is not great enough difference between any layouts not to cause some interference in transition and that there is not real trade off.  It's likely that in time, if you wanted by practice enough to maintain your old skill that you could learn to separate the two and perform both at a high level.  You would seem to be a good candidate for maintaining a skill learned from such an early age.

    No one can make any guarantees though.
    :-)

    Last edited by keyboard samurai (11-Jun-2007 19:30:04)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 05-Sep-2006
    • Posts: 40

    Why should switching be different for a really fast typist than for an average speed typist?

    The beauty of life is that there is always room for improvements, no matter what age or skill level you are at.

    Switch to Colemak and beat that Dvorak world record - that is a good way to promote the keyboard layout.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 210
    • From: Viken, Norway
    • Registered: 13-Dec-2006
    • Posts: 5,345

    Thing is, if you're not a competitive type and you have a setup that works well for you there's much less incentive to improve it than if you don't have a good setup beforehand. Muscle memory aside, there's just so much more to be gained by a QWERTY newbie which means that the cost-benefit curve should be more favourable.

    Of course, if it turns out that fast QWERTY typists have a much lesser cost of learning Colemak after all, the argument may change. But I think that may be very individual at any rate.

    *** Learn Colemak in 2–5 steps with Tarmak! ***
    *** Check out my Big Bag of Keyboard Tricks for Win/Linux/TMK... ***

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 09-May-2007
    • Posts: 17
    Jazzed said:

    I think it's unrealistic to expect any gains in speed, but I'm interested in making typing physically healthier and perhaps improving accuracy a bit.


    Is it actually worth switching with my current typing speeds for the slight stress-reduction? Has anyone who was already a proificient QWERTY touch-typest noticed any loss of that skill? I haven't had any issues pain thus far, I'm just being worried about any future injuries negatively impacting other uses of my hands (specifically piano).

    This is very much a personal decision. Colemak is not really about speed - if anything, speed is just a side-effect. What it is really about is typing comfortably, and perhaps a (possibly minor) reduction in fatigue for your fingers. Nonetheless, the *hardware* is the same... so any benefits are, as such, merely anecdotal at this stage.

    Still, I switched :)

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • From: NYC
    • Registered: 02-Feb-2007
    • Posts: 104

    Well it's upto you, but what I did when I was debating to stick with QWERTY or try an alternative is I first tried Dvorak, but just couldn't learn so many new keys so I gave up on it and tried the next in line, Colemak. After a few days, I've noticed how easy it was to learn the new layout, since only a few change and my accuracy was much better than QWERTY's. So then I decided to stick with Colemak and since then I use it as my only keyboard layout. My QWERTY speed is twice less than before but probably that's because I haven't typed in QWERTY since January. I've encouraged myself not to quit during my initial learning phase by seeing the "Compare" feature of this website, which gave me motivation to ditch QWERTY and and learn Colemak.

    BTW, I recommend learning Colemak during a vacation break from school/work, thus less pressure to go back to QWERTY to meet deadlines.

    Last edited by AGK (13-Jun-2007 07:02:37)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 11-Jun-2007
    • Posts: 3

    Thanks for all the responses, advice, et all.

    The other possible motivation depends on what you call reasonable accuracy at +110 WPM.

    Usually around 90% if I remember correctly.


    To reiterate though, my main concern with this is that most people who report success with Colemak report a drop in their QWERTY speed. I can't risk that happening. That's why I will not risk doing it cold-turkey. In fact, that's what I think I'll do: play with it this summer to see how it goes, but continue typing on QWERTY. I know this will slow progress a lot, but being able to use library computers (and other computers I can't just setup a new layout on) efficiently is too important.

    The requirement is being able to switch back and forth without thinking about it. The benefit of learning this would be that about half my typing time will be more comfortable and safe. I'm sure I'll be able to evaluate this once I spend some time this summer at it (and I'll report my thoughts then).

    My QWERTY speed is twice less than before but probably that's because I haven't typed in QWERTY since January.

    Exactly what I'm scared of.

    It's likely that in time, if you wanted by practice enough to maintain your old skill that you could learn to separate the two and perform both at a high level.  You would seem to be a good candidate for maintaining a skill learned from such an early age.

    That would be the ideal.


    Again, thanks for all the responses.

    Last edited by Jazzed (14-Jun-2007 04:29:06)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 05-Sep-2006
    • Posts: 40

    Makes me wonder how it is possible to type 110+ wpm with only 90% accuracy.

    Just did a test on "See how fast you can type!", I believe these results in general are 10% too high. Anyway, my QWERTY speed is around 60% (40 WPM) of my initial QWERTY speed (60-70 WPM). My Colemak speed is 40% (90 WPM) more than my original QWERTY.

    I've been using Colemak for 9 months, and have literally not typed on any QWERTY keyboards since that. Given this, I believe still keeping 60% of initial speed is not bad.

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 2
    • From: Houston, Texas
    • Registered: 03-Jan-2007
    • Posts: 358

    I have no experience with what really fast QWERTY typists consider good accuracy, but with Colemak I would consider dropping below 95% having a bad day at my relatively slow 50 WPM (so far).

    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 11-Jun-2007
    • Posts: 3

    Okay, I decided to try and get some actual numbers. Results of a one-minute test on about 'enchanted typewriter' from typingtest.com:

    Net Speed:      117 WPM
    Accuracy:     94%
    Gross Speed:     124 WPM

    Now if I repeated the same story a couple times I could probably boost those numbers just out of familiarity.

    Last edited by Jazzed (14-Jun-2007 21:31:15)
    Offline
    • 0
    • Reputation: 0
    • Registered: 05-Sep-2006
    • Posts: 40

    Hey Jazzed,
    did you ever switch?

    Offline
    • 0
      • Index
      • General
      • Convince me this is worth learning (for a fast QWERTY typist)